It is certainly not unreasonable to be upset that MS pushed a grossly-flawed and unfinished piece of software on so many. What would you expect of a company that has a monopoly on the PC interface used by most of the people on the planet. Still...it's NOT the end of the world. Yeah, I forked out $120 for this thing, but I spend several times that whenever I risk going out to a grocery store. There is a lot in this title that IS usable and enjoyable, even in it's current state. I was one of the first buyers, and I'm also a licensed PP, but I am still just learning how to configure and use this massive software, regardless of it's shortcomings. I just try to stay calm, avoid what doesn't work, and use what does - as a learning experience that will, at some point, contribute to my full use of the program in the future. More and more, I find that my enjoyment is, to a great extent, dependent upon getting the particular controls and functions I use most, satisfactorily mated to my peripherals. This has taken a great deal of learning and experimentation. As a strictly VFR PP I am also occupied with learning the methods and procedures necessary to properly use a modern glass panel. Yeah, much of the time the stuff doesn't seem to work as expected, but that doesn't mean it's useless as a training experience. Lately I have had a lot of success using the Cessna Caravan to make RNAV flights around places like New Zealand, where there is spectacular (and challenging) terrain to fly in. The basic functions of the Garmin panel have been working flawlessly, and I am bolstering my skill level by repeating things multiple times and in slightly differing ways. I bought this software expecting to use it for a long time. My expectations are still high, based upon what I have seen so far. I'm hangin' in there. My point is to not get your panties into a twist. Calm down, be patient, There is still a lot of enjoyment and learning to be extracted from this collection of ones and zeros, even though it's far from perfect. Your whining isn't going to affect Microsoft one whit . They know they are on to something and you are hooked. Keep up this behavior and you're just going to elevate your own stress level. CHILL    CHILL

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Bosco19

23 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

I don’t think that Asobo is dishonest. Honestly 😄. I’d say a little (understatement) deaf to the simmer community as the alpha has shown and maybe stubborn in their vision to reinvent the wheel.

It's mostly about their claims of the one-month delay between the water masks in the trailers and their in-game implementation and the false minimum system requirements, though it could be carelessness rather than blatant dishonesty. Or they're just trying to sweep those issues under the rug because not many people are aware of them, and it would create bad publicity. It's almost definitely this case with the latter, which is a shame because I'm seeing more and more reports of people buying the simulator in the past few weeks thinking their hardware is compatible. This is unacceptable in my view and what broke my trust in them.

As for the trailers and the free serial numbers and hardware for YouTube channels, it's just marketing for the casual users (whom they need for the product's viability in the long term), though considering the size of the team they could balance their focus between the casual and the dedicated users. Flight Simulator X did especially well in the regard, with the inclusion of missions and simple (but effective) tutorials, as well as the full suite of flight lessons and of course the free flight mode with a wide range of aircraft made to a level, but working in a stable manner. Maybe they just haven't had enough time to do that yet, and I think we will know whether they are truly capable (or willing) by the time Sim Update 3 or so is out. The first one felt somewhat disappointing.

20 minutes ago, Bosco19 said:

It is certainly not unreasonable to be upset that MS pushed a grossly-flawed and unfinished piece of software on so many. What would you expect of a company that has a monopoly on the PC interface used by most of the people on the planet. Still...it's NOT the end of the world....

Your whining isn't going to affect Microsoft one whit . They know they are on to something and you are hooked. Keep up this behavior and you're just going to elevate your own stress level. CHILL    CHILL

On the one hand you accept there are significant problems that need addressing. Those have been described in detail. But then you tell people to stop ‘whining’. 🤔

Its not whining, it’s complaining and is totally justified. Please don’t use words like that again.

4 hours ago, 2reds2whites said:

Can you imagine how hard you'd laugh if the dealer told you 'well you'll own this car for 10 years, so this is a 10 year project, we're all in this together and you should be patient.' The dealer would look like the world's biggest tool if they tried to make that argument, and you'd be comprehensively and monumentally stupid to accept that argument and go home with your wonky car.

And you paid $119 for MSFS, and $35K for the car.  This analogy absolutely does not, at all, apply!

Once again, MS/A appears to be focused on getting the Xbox release ready, and one can safely say the vast majority of Xbox users aren't going to have the same set of technical authenticity requirements of the sim crowd.  They completely are aware of this, of course.  Here's my advice to the hand-wringers here:

1.  Fly the TBM930 for now.  I"ve yet to have a real problem with it despite 120h of flying thusfar.  Works wonderfully, despite having some unfinished issues w/ navigation.  But we know what they for God's sake, and you can predict at some point they will be addressed.  Why?  My sense is considering, really, what a tiny job it would be to fine-tune every aspect of AP and Navigation functioning, compared to what was required to release MSFS on Aug 18th.

2.  If #1 doesn't cut it, absolutely go bye-bye back to the other tired and ultra mature sims until you can cope with reality here.  MS/A has no promise to you to make the sim 100% accurate in the next patch or even by next year.  They have their own agenda and likely that is focused on the Xbox release, after which we might see more dedication to addressing the needs of harder core simmer.   

10 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

On the one hand you accept there are significant problems that need addressing. Those have been described in detail. But then you tell people to stop ‘whining’. 🤔

Its not whining, it’s complaining and is totally justified. Please don’t use words like that again.

I thought moderators were not supposed to take sides. 

I think some of the issues some folks have is that complaining on this forum is simply preaching to the choir.  There is not ONE person on this thread who is in any position do do anything about this.  Except follow the established feedback mechanisms that the publisher has provided.  

So now 14 pages of replies into this, are we any closer to a resolution than we were when the OP opened the thread?  Nope.  Not a whit.  

As far as your objection to the use of the word whining.  I believe that definition 2 below from Webster's applies to some of us, even myself on occasion.
 

Definition of whining (Entry 2 of 2)

1: the act or an instance of producing a prolonged, high-pitched sound (such as a cry of distress or pain)

2: the act or activity of complaining in an annoyingly childish or petulant manner

5 minutes ago, Noel said:

And you paid $119 for MSFS, and $35K for the car.  This analogy absolutely does not, at all, apply!

 

It absolutely does apply.  The cost is irrelevant.  Perhaps someone saved up the 120 for 6 months to afford this sim...and why not...it was HIGHLY advertised.

Perhaps 35k is a drop in the bucket for some folks on this forum too.

Both of those customers are still entitled to a working product - free of defects.

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by ryanbatcund

3 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

It absolutely does apply.  The cost is irrelevant.  Perhaps someone saved up the 120 for 6 months to afford this sim...and why not...it was HIGHLY advertised.

Perhaps 35k is a drop in the bucket for some folks on this forum too.

Both of those customers are still entitled to working product - free of defects.

well it has defects, so..thats the hard fact.

but the childish way some ppl here go about those, says a lot about them.

in the meantime i am happily flying

1 minute ago, wthomas33065 said:

I thought moderators were not supposed to take sides. 

I think some of the issues some folks have is that complaining on this forum is simply preaching to the choir.  There is not ONE person on this thread who is in any position do do anything about this.  Except follow the established feedback mechanisms that the publisher has provided.  

So now 14 pages of replies into this, are we any closer to a resolution than we were when the OP opened the thread?  Nope.  Not a whit.  

As far as your objection to the use of the word whining.  I believe that definition 2 below from Webster's applies to some of us, even myself on occasion.
 

Definition of whining (Entry 2 of 2)

1: the act or an instance of producing a prolonged, high-pitched sound (such as a cry of distress or pain)

2: the act or activity of complaining in an annoyingly childish or petulant manner

I am not taking sides. I’m reminding people to keep discussion sensible and not use inflammatory words. The point of this topic is to discuss the problems with the latest update. I’m sure those involved have raised the issues formally on the Microsoft forum.

If this topic is of no interest to you no one is forcing you to read it. I don’t need reminding of the definition of ‘whining’. No further discussion from me now unless posts require it.

30 minutes ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

It's mostly about their claims of the one-month delay between the water masks in the trailers and their in-game implementation and the false minimum system requirements, though it could be carelessness rather than blatant dishonesty.  

As for the trailers and the free serial numbers and hardware for YouTube channels, it's just marketing for the casual users 

On the first point I agree that it was pretty lame if not unpleasant.  But the trailers were made and released  by Marketing.  And Marketing could have added a disclaimer afterwards. They didn't. We must always keep in mind that there are two distinct entities tied by a contract and that MS is the ultimate boss for the promotional activities. 

Second point, giving a free copy to a reviewer is a widely accepted practice . Giving away several hundreds of dollars of hardware is not, and amounts to bribery in my book. 

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Dominique_K

5 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

It absolutely does apply.  The cost is irrelevant.  Perhaps someone saved up the 120 for 6 months to afford this sim...and why not...it was HIGHLY advertised.

Perhaps 35k is a drop in the bucket for some folks on this forum too.

Both of those customers are still entitled to a working product - free of defects.

Please show us the HIGHLY advertised statement the product would be free of defects.  Just one reference will be sufficient.

And no, absolutely $119 does not compare, at all, w/ what one expects out of a $35K car.  Ludicrous analogy that does not apply.

2 minutes ago, wthomas33065 said:

So now 14 pages of replies into this, are we any closer to a resolution than we were when the OP opened the thread?  Nope.  Not a whit.  

Every time you reply the thread gets bumped to the top of the forum.  I'd suggest you take your own advice, go do something else, and stop bumping the thread.

46 minutes ago, Bosco19 said:

As a strictly VFR PP I am also occupied with learning the methods and procedures necessary to properly use a modern glass panel. Yeah, much of the time the stuff doesn't seem to work as expected, but that doesn't mean it's useless as a training experience. Lately I have had a lot of success using the Cessna Caravan to make RNAV flights around places like New Zealand, where there is spectacular (and challenging) terrain to fly in. The basic functions of the Garmin panel have been working flawlessly, and I am bolstering my skill level by repeating things multiple times and in slightly differing ways.

I implore you, if your goal is to learn the operation of the Garmin units for use in real-world flying situations - do not depend on MSFS for this purpose.  Even if it appears to work, there are major differences in the MSFS units that could cause you problems in actual flying.  You may learn bad habits or incorrect procedures which could put your safety at risk in an actual flight situation.

Just a few examples:

• The default roll axis mode in the G1000 is ROL mode on most aircraft, which is a roll hold mode.  Asobo has it default to LVL level-the-wings mode on several aircraft, which isn't always the case.
• OBS mode, which suspends flight plan sequencing and allows any waypoint to be used as if it were VOR, is not present
• Flight plan editing and 'Direct to' functions don't match the actual units
• Bearing pointers and distance measurements will show up when tuned to navaids that don't have that functionality

I'm not sure on the G1000, but RealityXP has the GTN750/650 for both FSX and X-Plane which I believe are based on the actual Garmin trainer software.

8 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

Who is this "we" you're talking about? I didn't know there was a committee on Avsim that has taken up the task of communicating collective grievances to Microsoft and Asobo.

I am fully aware that there are bugs - some small, some not so small -, weird behaviors, etc. My expectations were such that I expected (and still expect) this sim to take at least a year before it's ready for prime time.

Still, I'm amazed how well everything worked (and works) right out of the box: Every install/reinstall went smoothly, every patch installed without a problem; I've had exactly two crashes in the early days, both due to outdated/broken runtime libraries. Fixed those, and no crashes since. Graphics are superb, right out of the box - total immersion, with, to be sure, not everything modelled correctly. I've done dozens of approaches - sure, sometimes things get a little wonky, the G1X and G3X could use attention, which, I am sure, will come in due time.

The mod community is second to none; I could spend hours browsing Flightsim.to and Nexusmods.

A lot of people seem to have a problem with folks who enjoy MSFS 2020 in spite of the bug and problems.

You remind me of Baghdad Bob. He is on YouTube for those that don't remember.

1 minute ago, marsman2020 said:

I implore you, if your goal is to learn the operation of the Garmin units for use in real-world flying situations - do not depend on MSFS for this purpose. 

Thank goodness you point this out.  There may actually be people here who, after playing around w/ Garmin units in sim, and never having been exposed to the real deal, might actually go out and depend on what they just learned here 3.1 months after release of an unfinished product.

1 minute ago, B777ER said:

You remind me of Baghdad Bob. He is on YouTube for those that don't remember.

A good one, thanks for the laugh.

3 minutes ago, Noel said:

Please show us the HIGHLY advertised statement the product would be free of defects.  Just one reference will be sufficient.

And no, absolutely $119 does not compare, at all, w/ what one expects out of a $35K car.  Ludicrous analogy that does not apply.

The "finished" product does not have a splash screen stating that the software is in a beta state.  As for advertisement....the product was the most hyped piece of software I've seen in almost a decade.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the analogy part then.