5 hours ago, filou said:

What is the final project in all this?

Ummm, to get a Flight simulator, not a scenery simulator. Try and keep up.

 

8 minutes ago, Noel said:

Thank goodness you point this out.  There may actually be people here who, after playing around w/ Garmin units in sim, and never having been exposed to the real deal, might actually go out and depend on what they just learned here 3.1 months after release of an unfinished product.

They literally said that that is what they are using the sim game for.

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by marsman2020

Joining this thread a bit late, but......

Having owned and flown MS simulators since '95, I too have become a bit 'fed up' with MSFS2020.

Last week I bought and installed X-Plane 11 for the first time, and I'll be honest, I'm really enjoying the Zibo 737.

I haven't done much tweaking or added any scenery or other mods, as I want to get a bit familiar with the sim first (it is quite a different environment from MS simulators).

I am still monitoring the status of MSFS, and hopefully things will get sorted sooner than later.

But in the meantime, I am getting a bit of decent flying in.

Stay safe!

33 minutes ago, Noel said:

And no, absolutely $119 does not compare, at all, w/ what one expects out of a $35K car.  Ludicrous analogy that does not apply.

The point is simply that when you spend your money to get goods in return, you expect that to be working like it was supposed to as per the manufacturer's statement. If the product you exchange your money for then turns out to be flawed in some ways and subsequent fixes make things worse, you're understandably not going to be too amused at this and want the value you were expecting to receive based on the information available to you before you bought it. This is what the people in this thread are talking about and in this case, it really doesn't matter whether it's $119 or $35k or $1, or what product it is.

Of course, this is the general principle and in software development you're always going to have remaining bugs after release that need to be fixed and in this case it was to be expected. But the response is worrying people because the trend of it is going into the opposite direction of where is should be going. I'm personally still certain that Asobo will be able to turn this around and that the sim will be a spectacular simming platform in time, but the concerns and criticism are valid.

43 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

the product was the most hyped piece of software I've seen in almost a decade.

And well it should be for what it is.  Unfortunately, 'hyped' doth not at all imply freedom from imperfections.

As I said elsewhere, they should have restricted themselves a little bit to get those things included right or waited some more months to release. Best example: we get 30 planes but most of them are bugged. Why they did not restrict themselves to 5, 6 planes "only" but doing them right? Why not first concentrating on AI traffic with good models and liveries and then add live traffic later if everything works (or vice versa)? To me, there are so many things with potential already in the sim but in a beta status. Nobody would have missed updatable Navdata for some months if the navdata coming with default would have been at least correct. And so on...

6 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I'm personally still certain that Asobo will be able to turn this around and that the sim will be a spectacular simming platform in time, but the concerns and criticism are valid.

Me too--give it time, hand-wringers.  What's happening here is the hand-wringers are already so enamored by MSFS they are now worried it may not morph fully into their idea of what it should be.  Good for MS/Asobo they have created a platform so impressive they have their early user base wrapped around their fingers.  Any team of developers able to get the product as far as they have clearly 'will be able to turn this around', of course.  'Able', and 'will', however are indeed two different things.  Hand-wringing here will have zero impact on their mission, but it's a good place to vent.  My, personally, I will support the people doing this they know far more about what is happening than anyone in this forum.

I am just as disappointed as others that this software does not perform as expected or advertised. In a fantasy world this would be entirely unacceptable. In the real world this is how most things work. It's rare these days to purchase ANYTHING that works as perfectly as claimed in promotions. My point was that there is still some entertainment and value in MSFS2020. Because of the flaws I don't spend as much time in it as I otherwise might, but I many times boot up and have a thoroughly satisfying hour or so. And no, I am not "training" in the sim. I am midway through my 7th decade, and loss of vision prompted me to make the wise decision to get out of the cockpit (voluntarily). I am in this just to reclaim some old memories and experiences in whatever time I have left. That said, I DO believe desktop sims serve the useful function of procedural training (if the modeled aircraft are close approximations of the real thing).  Put someone who has "trained" on a sim into a real cabin or cockpit and it's very likely that fear and confusion will totally overwhelm anything they "learned," but after they get some R/W experience it can be very useful, especially for those whose finances limit the time they can spend in a real aircraft. I actually 3D-modeled an Experimental home-built that took me 22 years to construct from plans, and flew it in X-plane 9 years before the real plane was certified. The flight characteristics were surprisingly similar to the real plane! The main point there - in case you missed it - is that patience is a relative thing. Some have a higher degree of it than others, but that is what is going to be required to experience MSFS2020 in a state of reasonable completion. Just don't blow the whole thing off. It's still an incredible toy and time-waster - even in it's present state.

I was following this thread without participating until my post above and I never really had the impression that people were writing this sim off. They are expressing concerns over the situation right now, which is valid. Sure, some comments here or there may have been a bit harsh, but overall this is an interesting and mostly well behaved thread, imo. I'll say that I actually think things only started to become a bit uneasy when a few chimed in only to complain about the supposed complaining or whining, which I don't think was ever really there.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that people who have been expressing there disappointment are people that have been huge advocates of the sim and have defended it many times and also enjoyed it too. Most people on this forum had a good sense of what to expect, marketing an hype aside. It’s the poor management and implementation of the sim since it’s launch which is what is the real concern here and if Asobo were to lose the hardcore sim followers the sim would struggle long term.

All of you who are making excuses and saying "no software is perfect" need to come off from riding the Asobo/Microsoft hype train.

It's actually insane to see people justify software that ceases to operate at the most basic level (how many CTDs do we need from this past update?) for a LOT of people. Saying "it works fine for me, must be you" is such a stupid and selfish take when there are multiple reports and post after post showing the same issue.

Asobo is not some small studio that came out of nowhere, they are a well established team of professionals who have been doing this for a long time. To give them a pass because (in your opinion) this is the best looking simulator to day, is so naive and shortsighted.

MSFS is the pretty girl with an empty head... it's exciting at first but you slowly start to realize nothing of substance is really there.

I've said it before, but the suckers here that are willing to accept absolute mediocrity would have made my past company so much more successful.

46 minutes ago, AnkH said:

As I said elsewhere, they should have restricted themselves a little bit to get those things included right or waited some more months to release. 

Why do you think they didn't?  I bet we both agree this was not random, happenstance, IOW there IS an explanation beyond the developers are just dumb, can't fly real planes, and so forth, at least I hope that is the concensus from this crowd.  Perhaps in the earliest planning stages they set up a lofty target of getting all of them 'right', which we know varies greatly between all of the 3rd party airplanes in the other sims just to put this simple statement in perspective.   Then came timing the entry into the Xbox arena w/ its own set of priorities, as they approach the 2020 holiday season, in the midst of a global pandemic, they need to determine, for their own success, what matters most.  Stopping, after getting all of the included planes mostly functional, and they are, seemed like less of a smart business idea especially after they announced what was to be included for which they became committed.  Did they not forcast correctly early on?  Of course, 20:20 hindsight provides a very different answer than realtime factors, all of them that MS/A needed to deal with in realtime.  

I give the entire team huge credit.  And here is the question I pose to those who live in a state of disappointment, frustration, anger, worry, etc:  would you rather they delayed the release for say another 6-12 months?  I sure don't, I've had a total blast with it, even appreciating it's immature state.  Again, Prepar3D 20years on the making.  120h later, most in the TBM930, nothing but ILS VOR/DME RNAV approaches certainly sufficient to let me land planes as I do in the other sims and enjoy an entire planet replete w/ amazingly well done airports, even w/ their less than sterling technical correctness.

27 minutes ago, langly said:

MSFS is the pretty girl with an empty head... it's exciting at first but you slowly start to realize nothing of substance is really there.

I feel more and more sad to see the direction this thread is taking. While the OP raised a number of (IMO) mostly valid issues, this is turning more and more into a general bashing of MS and Asobo. Take this in conjunction with the staggering hate towards MSFS in the Prepar3d forums, I get the impression some people feel it's time to give MSFS the death blow now that Prepar3d5 got finally rid of some of its most serious issues after more than half a year.

While there are issues no doubt, I confess I still enjoy MSFS and I fly more those days than in the 30 years before with other sims. Despite watermasks are missing and despite I notice performance issues since the latest update, too. It's certainly warranted and even required to make these public, although notice in the official forum and/or Zendesk might achive more, so that's what I prefer. 

Anyway, I am sad these issues are taken as a starting point for an across fora attack against MSFS. I am happy to see a great number of new users finding access to flying on a PC via MSFS, call it a game or simulator whatever you want. No one is forced to use MSFS and anyone who likes another simulator is free to return to it or buy it. But continually trying to force others who enjoy MSFS from using it, isn't something I find fair.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by pmb

1 minute ago, pmb said:

But continually trying to force others who enjoy MSFS from using it, isn't something I find fair.

No one is forcing anyone from using anything.  If anyone doesn't like the contents of this thread, they are frankly free to not read the thread.

2 minutes ago, pmb said:

It's certainly warranted and even required to make these public, although notice in the official forum and/or Zendesk might achive more, so that's what I prefer. 

ZenDesk is like yelling into an empty echo chamber that accomplishes nothing (although I spent a good 4 hours this weekend making a nice video showing how the HDG autopilot is broken and submitting it to ZenDesk). Threads on the official forum discussing issues with the sim are largely closed/deleted, like the thread discussing said AP issue was yesterday.

7 minutes ago, marsman2020 said:

No one is forcing anyone from using anything.  If anyone doesn't like the contents of this thread, they are frankly free to not read the thread.

ZenDesk is like yelling into an empty echo chamber that accomplishes nothing (although I spent a good 4 hours this weekend making a nice video showing how the HDG autopilot is broken and submitting it to ZenDesk). Threads on the official forum discussing issues with the sim are largely closed/deleted, like the thread discussing said AP issue was yesterday.

I like to think of zendesk in the same way that I email my local MP if there is a problem. It’s roughly the same response.