44 minutes ago, Noel said:

Are you pushing the bleeding edges here, in this immature, incomplete sim, with any mods of any kind whatsoever?  Changed anything to do w/ file structures in any way?  Haven't done a single one here, and have yet to have any signficant new issues w/ my default planes, TBM and recently the fix-wandering Citation L. 

I have a suspicion the more advanced among us in this very different platform designed to go to console and PC, especially those with the very long history of editing/modifying all sorts of things in the prior sims, may be contributing to their own problems.  Again, NO issues w/ anything of significance, including install and all patches.  That may not be you, but would not surprise me in the slightest if this was not playing some role in some peoples' issues.

I absolutely use mods.  I have, however, ran the sim for a number of hours without them.  I still get random crashes, see random scenery anomalies, and experience the annoying avioincs issues (again, some issues for me aren't issues for the Xbox gamer crowd)

Without doing a real test, I do indeed notice more issues while running Community addons.  And periodically I find json files with issues...  

After going a little over the top with addons at first, I'm now fairly careful when I add these in.  Two weeks ago I did the half-half method to find a faulty scenery file.

1 hour ago, devgrp said:

I don't know what you guys are doing for the sim to hose your system. I've been in the alpha and never had a problem with with instalation or update. The alpha was installed on a system with XP and p3d. Deleted those right after I installed msfs and have never had a single issue 

I did hose the system myself. I made the preinstall to a drive different from C:. When it came to installing the sim on 18 August, it searched for preinstalled files on C where it didn't find them. The real disaster started when I tried to uninstall the preinstallation to start over, which didn't work either, next I tried to get rid of hidden directories by modifying permissions and so on.

That's for short. I can send you the complete 3-pages report which I sent to the MS support, if you like 😉. The alpha worked flawlessly for me either.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by pmb

I made the decision early-on not to accept any outside add-ons, nor tweak any files until such time as things became more stable. Why court disaster? In the event my sim becomes inop, at least I will know it isn't something I've done on my own. The biggest grief for me so far happened when I was validating files on Steam after each update and the entire sim would then take hours to re-download each time. Thankfully, someone on Avsim identified the issue. As a pilot, I was most concerned with aircraft handling more than the eye candy, and that seems to have improved a bit since release. Otherwise, Garmin faults have been the most annoying thing for me - certainly not deal breakers, but it made trying to learn how to use the glass panels a guessing game; was this not working because I don't know how to use it, or because it was just buggy? Other than that, even with my rather modest gear and settings somewhat below Ultra, nothing ever crashed or prevented me from operating. I'm not giving Microsoft a pass. This is their software, running on their operating system and I could be justified in expecting better than this. But right now, I feel as though I have awakened on some unrecognizable planet, I don't know what "normal" is - or is GOING to be anymore. Therefore I will temper my judgement a tad because I can't really know why things aren't better in this sim. By this time next year, if things haven't substantially improved, I might have to change my attitude.

I must admit actually, I think I did hose my system.  I think a lot of us have done judging from the responses on this thread. 😣

We have been stupid.  By using the community folder that Asobo put there for us, it has caused my sim to change the quality of the water a number of times, delete the night lighting reflections in the water and then make them appear again, delete the lovely water masks that were there to start with, change the intensity of the sharpening filter unnecessarily to make clouds look really grainy under certain circumstances, make lightning flashes in clear weather, stop me from starting the sim when I have a usb device plugged in, delete the joystick sensitivity window, make it CTD when bringing up the internal VFR map, change my keyboard settings without warning, cause CTD errors when using my Carenado aircraft, stop my add on liveries from working - still for reasons unknown, recently introduce stuttering and pop-up scenery i never had before even when I have nothing in the community folder, make islands look like they have a row of white triangles around he edge from a distance, constantly trash a number of superbly brilliant freeware add-ons that are an absolute joy to the community, make my autopilot unrealistically slow at turning, and made my on screen dialogue boxes stretched and fuzzy out of the blue.

I have caused all of these problems (and a few I have forgotten) since initial release.  I believe putting add-ons in the community folder may have caused this.  What a fool I have been. 😣

PS. For those of you who have older graphics cards that worked perfectly in August, but now have flickering clouds, you must have done something extremely stupid!  You naughty, naughty people!

PS. I just realised I might have been the saboteur all along - oh no!  ☺️

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by bobcat999

1 hour ago, devgrp said:

I don't know what you guys are doing for the sim to hose your system. I've been in the alpha and never had a problem with with instalation or update. The alpha was installed on a system with XP and p3d. Deleted those right after I installed msfs and have never had a single issue 

Around 60% of Steam reviews were positive on launch day, most of the others complaining about the installation issues and the fact that they couldn't get a refund since installing the content counted as playtime on Steam (thankfully Valve later stepped in to clarify that refunds will be allowed). Yes, the majority of users experienced a clean, flawless installation process, but also the amount of users experiencing severe issues is abnormally high to just blame it on user error. 1.7.14.0 was released for a reason.

We need to stop with this mentality "my simulator has always worked perfect, if it does not that's on you".

37 minutes ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

We need to stop with this mentality "my simulator has always worked perfect, if it does not that's on you".

I definitely agree here. It's commonplace that systems are too different to transfer experiences from one machine to another. I am also absolutely for pinpointing issues where they surface and remind Asobo of them over and over. Thus, your watermaks thread makes certainly sense to me.

What I abolutely hate are sweeping condemnations of MSFS, as I still find it best fitting my needs and just enjoy it so much even in its present state. And I still think it's the way into the future.

Kind regards, Michael

3 hours ago, Noel said:

I have a suspicion the more advanced among us in this very different platform designed to go to console and PC, especially those with the very long history of editing/modifying all sorts of things in the prior sims, may be contributing to their own problems. 

I use the MSFS Addon Linker and un-link all of my addons anytime I am trying to chase down a problem or submit something to ZenDesk.

55 minutes ago, pmb said:

It's commonplace that systems are too different to transfer experiences from one machine to another.

Considering that some people are still getting looping downloads, which are fixed by limiting the download speed, I have the feeling that in this case many of the installation issues could be down to some of the servers in Microsoft's CDN being problematic, perhaps specific to some regions. Who knows. Still, I can't stand people blindly defending the application when it has obvious issues that affect a large portion of the userbase. The Steam review bombing and the mess that the official forums were at launch is enough proof of that.

55 minutes ago, pmb said:

And I still think it's the way into the future.

There is little doubt about that. I cannot see the older simulators ever catching up and providing an experience like this out of the box, even if they tried to compete.

Having seen Asobo's progress the past three months, I still think that eventually we will get to the point where the simulator is considered stable enough by the majority of its users, and has a thriving ecosystem enabled by a complete SDK, but it will probably take much, much longer to get there than we originally thought. In the meantime, I hope that Asobo will try to eliminate some of the errors in their communication with the userbase, and improve their transparency regarding some things like the shifting hardware compatibility.

Edited December 1, 20205 yr by ChaoticBeauty

5 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

I know they are not incompetent, as they would not be able to get where they did at launch, and I would never seriously claim that on a public forum, especially as they are so much more cleverer than me (although, as a Quality Manager, I would like a shot at their quality control 😁)

Now that Asobo has officially announced there is an issue with the AP its time again to see if it can stay fixed.   I too am in QA and the fact that this dev process keeps letting these issues get to production is mind boggling to me.....Its possible there is a reasonable explanation for this but not almost every update release....

1 hour ago, marcg11 said:

Now that Asobo has officially announced there is an issue with the AP its time again to see if it can stay fixed.   I too am in QA and the fact that this dev process keeps letting these issues get to production is mind boggling to me.....Its possible there is a reasonable explanation for this but not almost every update release....

All they really need to do is simply back out the one change they made to the horizontal turn rate and put it back to the way it was before, and not do any further monkeying with the core autopilot code. As Robert has stated, the basic autopilot functions were mostly fine all along. Many of the problems attributed to the “autopilot” have actually been due to other aircraft systems - in particular the GPS/FMS/Flight Planning systems.

A real autopilot is kind of like a somewhat “dense” but loyal and reliable worker, who can do a limited set of tasks very well, as long as he is given clear and precise directions, (and plenty of supervision), but who really is not capable of any kind of independent thinking or problem solving. 
 

An autopilot, (real or simulated), on its own, can really only do 7 things:

1. Maintain a selected heading

2. Initiate a roll to a new selected heading, hold a constant bank rate in the turn, and roll out and capture the new heading.

3. Pitch the nose up to climb.

4. Pitch the nose down to descend.

5. Automatically apply pitch trim in a climb or descent to relieve control forces on the elevator.

6. Terminate a climb or descent by pitching up or down as required to capture a selected altitude

7. Maintain a selected altitude by minor pitch changes (as required).

That’s it. 

In the most recent patch, Asobo changed one of the “basic 7” functions of the core autopilot emulation (rate of turn), which caused no end of issues with multiple aircraft functions.

The autopilot does need some external inputs from other systems in order to know how to carry out its assignments.

It needs altitude and airspeed information from the air data system.

It needs heading, pitch, roll and turn rate information from the IRS or AHRS in a newer aircraft, or from the mechanical attitude indicator, directional gyro and turn coordinator in an older “steam gauge” aircraft. 

For automatic pitch trim, it simply monitors the mechanical load on the elevator servo, and moves the trim tab or horizontal stab to reduce the load.

When an autopilot is tracking a lateral course and vertical descent path in LNAV/VNAV mode, the “brains” of the operation, and source of all steering commands to the autopilot is the FMS or GPS. The autopilot is simply doing what it’s told.

Likewise, when the autopilot is tracking an ILS localizer and glideslope, all horizontal and vertical steering commands and corrections are coming from the Nav receiver. The autopilot, again, is simply doing what it’s told.

The infamous MSFS “Crazy Ivan” maneuver, where the aircraft attempts to turn back to an approach initial fix after already having passed it is not a bug in the actual the autopilot emulation at all - it is an error in the GPS logic.

Edited December 1, 20205 yr by JRBarrett

2 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

A real autopilot is kind of like a somewhat “dense” but loyal and reliable worker, who can do a limited set of tasks very well, as long as he is given clear and precise directions, (and plenty of supervision), but who really is not capable of any kind of independent thinking or problem solving. 

That’s it. 

In the most recent patch, Asobo changed one of the “basic 7” functions of the core autopilot emulation (rate of turn), which caused no end of issues with multiple aircraft functions.

 

Very well explained. I think simmers should also realise that every aircraft has a "custom" autopilot in which the core a/p functions can be speeded up and slowed down through PID controls. At the moment even with extreme PID settings you still cannot overcome the slugglish heading capture. I agree that all that needs to be done is put the a/p core back to what it was.

12 hours ago, pmb said:

 

What I abolutely hate are sweeping condemnations of MSFS, as I still find it best fitting my needs and just enjoy it so much even in its present state. And I still think it's the way into the future.

 

I understand your dismay, Michael, and sympathise but when you put aside the static noise from hating trolls and Baghdad Bobs (love Eric's expression), we see a mass of simmers that were and are still well disposed towards MFS but start to have doubts  about having a "serious simmer" sim in a reasonable future.  Not an arty fartsy screenshot  platform for "amazing" contributors. One of the best posts of this thread is @Carts85, including its conclusion.

And may I add that I'd rather have them working on it than on transporting the sim to Xbox or VR. I don't care. Selfish I am.

It is  not us who said that Asobo's baby would be a serious simmer sim, it is them. Since the beginning. Time to deliver or at least to give us at least the signal that they are serious about it. 

We may be a little harsh. I agree. There is a time to smile and there is a time to frown. Tough love 😁 hey ?

That is so funny.  Baghdad Bob.  I remember him.  In the UK we called him 'Comical Ali', in the mode of the Iraqi chemical weapons expert called Chemical Ali.
Some who deny the problems on here are like that.

[MSFS User]:  Hey!  I have ridges/steps running across my runways at the airport - they make my plane jump or flip over when I hit them.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]:  I don't see that.  It must be something you are doing wrong.  There are no American Soldiers... ahem!  I mean ridges, at the airport. 

[MSFS User]:  Well I have see them.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]: No you haven't.  I could take you there now this minute to prove it.

[MSFS User]:  Go on then!.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]:  Well... We can't go now, it's too dangerous!.. 

Edited December 1, 20205 yr by bobcat999

1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

That is so funny.  Baghdad Bob.  I remember him.  In the UK we called him 'Comical Ali', in the mode of the Iraqi chemical weapons expert called Chemical Ali.
Some who deny the problems on here are like that.

[MSFS User]:  Hey!  I have ridges/steps running across my runways at the airport - they make my plane jump or flip over when I hit them.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]:  I don't see that.  It must be something you are doing wrong.  There are no American Soldiers... ahem!  I mean ridges, at the airport. 

[MSFS User]:  Well I have see them.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]: No you haven't.  I could take you there now this minute to prove it.

[MSFS User]:  Go on then!.

[A Typical Baghdad Bob]:  Well... We can't go now, it's too dangerous!.. 

So the people that have amostly bug free experience and that refuse to whine with you over the bugs you experience, are gonna get the blame now? Whats going on here... 😀

18 hours ago, UAL4life said:

Yup give me back the release version. It’s getting to the point where it’s not even the same product I bought, let alone the “premium” content that has been broken and keeps getting worse. 

I agree to 100%, I wish they would give us back the release version and start over with rigorous beta testing of all upcoming patches before they release them in public.