4 hours ago, Ixoye said:

I'm afraid that implementing VR will be a disaster, and not just for those who intend to use it.

Just wait for VR to get released!

It will take another year of patches to get that working correctly if Abodo’s past record is anything to go by and good luck on them having time to fix all the broken flight sim parts as VR fixes will be on the top of the list!

With the state of things currently I believe it would be best to put VR off till 1st quarter of 2021 at least!

 

But VR sells and that’s where Aboso’s interests ultimately lay unfortunately!

1 hour ago, wthomas33065 said:

 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana.

Seriously,  Some people here are pathetic...
 

Well that was very intense.  I am certain some of that was aimed at me.  No problem, I understand your strength of feeling as well 👍, but I stand by the general sentiment of what I said, and I am really confused and concerned by some of the things happening during the updates, I just didn't realise how many others shared the same feelings.

I must admit, I started the thread with that 'Sabateur' title partly in jest, but also out of frustration, and then I was quite surprised how quickly it picked up.  All of these people aren't out to trash the sim or Asobo, they have paid good money they will never get back, so that would be foolish, they just show the same concern as me about it getting better quickly enough, and 'quickly enough' is very subjective I know.

I tried to pick through your post to find points to answer directly but I couldn't really.  The FSX similarities aren't really valid.  I remember the days of Phil Taylor (was it?) who did his best to answer the community concerns at the time.  The poor guy took a beating sometimes.  But the performance was really poor, and the promised DX10 and other bug fixes didn't arrive until Dovetail and Steves DX10 fixer came about, along with PC's 10 years later that could actually get 30 frames out of the thing.  In the age of instant gratification, people just won't wait that long now. 

In my view, the 10 year plan is for expansion of content and features, not to take that time to deliver a working sim with the basics right.  Am I mistaken to think this way?  Although I bought it expecting it to be in 'early release' condition, I just don't expect it to go backwards from there.

Scenery is just that, good, but just an add-on and can't be classed as an improvement to the simulator in itself, it is just the nice content that adds value, but to do that the basics have to be right.  What we have at the moment is content moving forward, and basic functionality of the sim going backwards in some areas - that is where my concern lies.

You should realise a lot of people are just as confused and concerned as me about the releases that seem rushed-out and cause these issues.  Maybe Asobo are trying too hard, but some of the changes, accidental or not, are very strange.  I have no doubt this will turn into a top notch sim over the years, but people are showing their concern over some things that may be going wrong now, with the testing and quality control of the releases.  And it isn't just to trash Asosb, I am just as concerned about the future of the sim as you, but maybe from a different angle, as you seem to be concerned about people critcising the sim or the developers, where as I am just concerned about the quality of the (non-scenery) updates. 

What's your take on that?  Does the quality of some of the updates not bother you?

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by bobcat999

Actually it was aimed at no one in particular.  I just felt that some perspective was needed. 

At the end of the day, all this drama, all this emotion, all this ...."anger".  For what?  A computer game. 

I have spent nearly $1000.00 upgrading my computer to play this game, so it's not as if I have zero skin in this game.  But despite where it is now, I think it's money well spent.  

I like many are frustrated with the updates breaking things that were fixed.     It shouldn't happen.  But it does.  It's a problem throughout the software industry and my constant moaning about it won't make it change. 

There are others here, who, I guess, seem to think that complaining about the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, at every developer QA and every patch release post will change things.  I don't hold to that opinion. So I have to accept what I can not change and roll with the punches.  Why?  Because if I don't, I'd be a miserable person.

I was just starting to really enjoy the stock A320, and now I have to shelve it awhile until the A/P is fixed.  So be it.  There's plenty of other areas in this sandbox that I can explore.  

I really do hope Asobo stops with the biweekly releases. I think it is too aggressive.  There simply isn't enough time to make the corrections and then properly test the changes.  Regression testing takes time, especially software of this scale.  And they've proven that biweekly doesn't seem to provide that time necessary.  But I also acknowledge that they have business commitments that need to be kept so that they can continue to pay their employees and those individuals can support their families.  So my opinion on biweekly releases really amounts to nothing.

So, I will continue to enjoy what I have, because it's all I can do.  If I see a bug that really annoys me, I'll open a zendesk ticket and write the bug up as completely as I can with replication steps, and then......let it go.  

In the Navy, there was a term that says...'A happy sailor is a b_tchin sailor'.  And for years I lived by that motto figuring that meant I was the happiest person alive.  Until it almost killed me.  For me now, it's a matter of changing the things I can, and letting go of the rest.  I'm not perfect at that.  But the better I am at it, the better I sleep at night, and I don't work myself up in a lather over things I can't control...such as the opinions of others, so I'll take my own advice at that as well.

Wishing you all fair winds and clear skies.  

 

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by wthomas33065

Fair!  I can't argue with any of that, and I wouldn't want to anyway.  😁   

Go and enjoy the sim!  I agree you can in a lot of ways, it excels in a lot of areas already, and I really have no doubt will be even better in time. 
A lot of this is growing pains, and expectant simmers like me behave like adolescents sometimes.  All part of life, but not worth over-stressing about as you say.  👍

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by bobcat999

4 hours ago, kiwikat said:

A "ten year platform" should mean we have something to enjoy for ten years, not wait ten years for it to become a suitable replacement for the last generation of sims.

Well of course, but I think there is plenty of space between now and 10y out.  P3D has been around 10y now preceded by a nearly identical FSX for 4y before that.  I think they're likely basking in early success, resting on their laurels as they ready for the Xbox release, and realize simmers aren't going anywhere they will get back to them in due time.  I don't it's an accident they were able to develop what they did, this did not happen by chimps hitting their keyboards over 3y to produce the incredible initial release they did.  My sense is they have the C Team fielding the recent patches as an organized bone throw to the flood of messages they receive from their forum and the other forums.  So yes, it's clearly not inspiring.  But heck don't you think they know this as well?  So why would they decide this is an okay place to be right now?  What are the plausible explanations?  I've offered what i have as plausible.  

5 hours ago, kiwikat said:

Oh, and ignoring the thousands of people who volunteered their time and efforts to test and give feedback to ensure this didn't happen.

Perfect post^

Not only did we do that- many testers gave DETAILED reports on issues and we were ignored.

Just this evening I posted a large screenshot spread about the partial enjoyment I had been having.  I enjoy making screenshots a lot!  The Sim is visually stunning...but broken in almost every other aspect...

Flight

Systems

Avionics

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by ryanbatcund
spelling

6 hours ago, wthomas33065 said:

Actually it was aimed at no one in particular.  I just felt that some perspective was needed. 

At the end of the day, all this drama, all this emotion, all this ...."anger".  For what?  A computer game. 

I have spent nearly $1000.00 upgrading my computer to play this game, so it's not as if I have zero skin in this game.  But despite where it is now, I think it's money well spent.  

 

I don't get all that emotion and anger either. I spent $0 on upgrading my PC and $20 on Rex Weather Force. I'm enjoying the heck out of MSFS.* Expecting it to be bug free after 3 months is like berating your 3 month old toddler why he hasn't grown a beard yet. I really don't understand all the histrionics.

*) I suspect the imminent release of Cyberpunk 2077 is going to significantly cut into my time playing MSFS 2020

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Ricardo41

8 hours ago, wthomas33065 said:

Sounds like some of you need to take a break.  Go out for a long drive, take a long walk through the park, breathe in the fresh air.  Get some perspective.  ...

So go ahead, continue to moan and complain. 
 

That’s how this thread started... some of us are taking a break. 

What I found fascinating about this community early on (when I joined a few months back) was that there was little tolerance for moaning and complaining. It’s as if (for many), this flight sim is something sacred that is above criticism. It’s very interesting.

But the mood seems to be shifting.

What I see, is a product rushed to market, built on a decade old platform, taken on by a new team with little to no experience with the subject matter, driven by corporate priorities (greed), full of compromise, supported by too few resources. It’s not uncommon. And on top of all this, during a pandemic (but that’s not an excuse). 

I’ve seen this before as you say... history has a way of repeating itself, unless you take action to do things differently. And I don’t see anything being done here differently. In fact, I see a lot of the same mistakes being made. I believe it is going to be a long, slow, painful journey to greatness. 

I believe some pressure from the community to hold the team accountable for poor QA, bad decisions, deprecating things, and setting false expectations (if not lying) is important.  It’s our responsibility as vocal members of the community to support the team when they do great, and deliver on our feedback, but also to hold them to account... and get their attention if necessary when we’re being ignored. And sometimes, when polite diplomacy fails (zendesk), it may require an uprising with pitchforks in hand (inflamatory threads). And the more support the better... from everyone!

This most recent release has been a bit of a wake up call. Even the rose coloured glasses are starting to wear thin. 😉

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Virtual-Chris

35 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

I don't get all that emotion and anger either. I spent $0 on upgrading my PC and $20 on Rex Weather Force. I'm enjoying the heck out of MSFS.* Expecting it to be bug free after 3 months is like berating your 3 month old toddler why he hasn't grown a beard yet. I really don't understand all the histrionics.

*) I suspect the imminent release of Cyberpunk 2077 is going to significantly cut into my time playing MSFS 2020

I don’t think anyone’s expecting bug free. But what we’re concerned about are patches that break more than they fix. That’s a trend that’s got to stop. 

Most of your comments look like a bunch of old dried wood branch."Patetic" is the minimum of politeness.I have a certain pleasure to see you frustrated and see which direction the mentality of your comments is able to go in this topic.

 

10 hours ago, kiwikat said:

I'm left in an awkward spot where I can't get myself to use the new sim, and I can't get myself to use the old sims.

Yup.  That's where I'm at

9 minutes ago, filou said:

Most of your comments look like a bunch of old dried wood branch."Patetic" is the minimum of politeness.I have a certain pleasure to see you frustrated and see which direction the mentality of your comments is able to go in this topic.

 

Imho he hits the nail on the head.

What I read in this mostly well-behaved and argued thread is not so much people losing patience than people disenchanted and maybe more worrying, disillusioned. 

The only fractious posts are coming from devotees.  I like it they say, so any critic is pathetic, histrionic, dead wood. Goodness, these are arguments 🤣 !  Prepare the stake, they say, burn the heretics ! 

 

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

 But what we’re concerned about are patches that break more than they fix. That’s a trend that’s got to stop. 

Who is this "we" you're talking about? I didn't know there was a committee on Avsim that has taken up the task of communicating collective grievances to Microsoft and Asobo.

I am fully aware that there are bugs - some small, some not so small -, weird behaviors, etc. My expectations were such that I expected (and still expect) this sim to take at least a year before it's ready for prime time.

Still, I'm amazed how well everything worked (and works) right out of the box: Every install/reinstall went smoothly, every patch installed without a problem; I've had exactly two crashes in the early days, both due to outdated/broken runtime libraries. Fixed those, and no crashes since. Graphics are superb, right out of the box - total immersion, with, to be sure, not everything modelled correctly. I've done dozens of approaches - sure, sometimes things get a little wonky, the G1X and G3X could use attention, which, I am sure, will come in due time.

The mod community is second to none; I could spend hours browsing Flightsim.to and Nexusmods.

A lot of people seem to have a problem with folks who enjoy MSFS 2020 in spite of the bug and problems.

12 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

What I read in this mostly well-behaved and argued thread is not so much people losing patience than people disenchanted and maybe more worrying, disillusioned. 

The only fractious posts are coming from devotees.  I like it they say, so any critic is pathetic, histrionic, dead wood. Goodness, these are arguments 🤣 !  Prepare the stake, they say, burn the heretics ! 

 

I already feel a slight progress.