I've never used, or seen XP running so I really have no opinion of it's actual merits.

The problem it has that I see will be getting a large base of new users. Anyone who is not currently a sim user that wants to be one will do a Google search for flight simulator. Most likely, the first several hits on the result listings will be for MSFS. After viewing a few of those links, they are likely to spot XP and take a look. My guess is that the visuals alone will sway them to MSFS. They don't know, and probably don't care about the nuanced differences in flight models and such. Once they learn that they'd need to spend a ton of money on add-ons to get the visuals up to snuff, I think they'll mostly decide to go with MSFS.

There will be new users of XP based on word of mouth amongst pilots and hard core enthusiasts that don't care about the visuals as much as some of the technical stuff, but I wouldn't want to feed my family off of that business model.    

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

For instance I paid £90 for the Toliss A321 pre MSFS and recently I paid £50 for the Fenix A320. Can you guess which one I think offers the best value for money?

mmmm,  I would guess when you consider what paid vs what you actually use for example, I noticed you wouldn't mention the Z word when paring that up with PMDG. Because if you consider that, that would throw you argument of "value of money" right out the window. 

6 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

mmmm,  I would guess when you consider what paid vs what you actually use for example, I noticed you wouldn't mention the Z word when paring that up with PMDG. Because if you consider that, that would throw you argument of "value of money" right out the window. 

Not a reasonable comparison. One is freeware. The Zibo is superb and it's only competition is the FBW.

1 hour ago, jarmstro said:

....

Thats is fine and that is your call.

And I bought the PMDG twice, dont want to buy it yet again as I have the free zibo in x-plane, but still paid the CL650 price tag, Why? Another awesome product for my fleet in a simulator that serves me better. Am I the only one? Probably not, thousands like me, does it make us all not smart customers?

XP going against MSFS seems like a mom and pop store trying to successfully compete with  Amazon. Not going to happen.  

8 minutes ago, mtaxp said:

Thats is fine and that is your call.

And I bought the PMDG twice, dont want to buy it yet again as I have the free zibo in x-plane, but still paid the CL650 price tag, Why? Another awesome product for my fleet in a simulator that serves me better. Am I the only one? Probably not, thousands like me, does it make us all not smart customers?

I was very tempted by the CL650 but was put off by that sinister Half Life 2 looking FBO. I swear that Gordon Freeman must be lurking in there somewhere.

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by jarmstro

29 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

XP going against MSFS seems like a mom and pop store trying to successfully compete with  Amazon. Not going to happen.  

What do you mean its not going to happen, LR has been at it for the last 30 years. Why didn't Microsoft stick around and stay in the game instead of going away for at least 14 of them?

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by BobFS88

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

Softbody physics, CFD simulation via Navier-Stokes equations solving (https://devsupport.flightsimulator.com/storage/attachments/2425-debug-aircraft-cfd.pdf), world/environment airflow/thermals/etc simulation (which currently is at a more advanced level) soon to be enhanced even more via using aforementioned CFD techniques expanding to a 20 mile radius around the aircraft, etc etc.
 

Lol, well gee I'm shocked that a XP fan would brush off iniBuilds' statement like that... we can all see for ourselves when the iniBuilds A310 drops for MSFS as to how capable its flight model is. For many of us, we don't need iniBuilds to tell us what we know already... those of us who've used all sims including XP, we can see for ourselves just how capable MSFS is in terms of flight models and aerodynamics by flying the likes of the Milviz C310, Fenix A320, PMDG 737, Kodiak, etc etc. Oh, and then there are the countless veteran IRL pilots (and simmers) of these aircrafts who've said the same thing, and some even going out of their way to say how flight dynamics/handling is similar if not better than XP. No amount of XP fans or Austin shouting "no no XP's flight model is the bestest!!" is going to change our minds 🙂

Re: inibuilds, Your constant pre matured assumptions and bias about what you read is not a very good tactic, so read again what excatly I said about their CEO statements. I.e. You choose to ignore all the other x-plane developers who chose to stick with it and went for the sole one who fits your agenda and claims. And this sole one quote is not even coming from a developer, but a manager, big difference. Go figure...

Re: CFD & flight model; Unless you are going to prove excatly the outcomes pros and cons and back it up with input/output data those statements are too vague a la tech marketing.

An example for how to do that:

https://developer.x-plane.com/2022/02/x-plane-12-flight-model-update-supersonic-transition-delta-wings-and-mass-properties/

https://developer.x-plane.com/article/x-plane-12-flight-model-report/

Lastly, no one is trying to change your mind, no one could care less, but fool me expecting people to backup statements they shout in full confidence.

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by mtaxp

1 hour ago, MDFlier said:

 

I don't know about that. This professional pilot managed to pull it off in the Fenix in MSFS.

 

He was able to do that NOT because of ANY simulator training, it was because his years of experience allowed him to realize that the worst possible choice was the only choice and that he had the balls to go with that assessment and make the best of it. I suspect that many other pilots would have written that choice off.

You are trying very hard to misunderstand. Dare I say you are very successful, in doing so? 😁. Anyway ... why did he suddenly turn to the left? I haven't seen any birds. What I wanted to say ... in X-Plane, there are birds (I've seen videos of - if I remember correctly X-Plane 8, if not X-Plane 9 for sure - with birdstrikes) and they interact with the plane - like IRL.

 

Quote (I don't remember any more who wrote it) - basically:

"Many real pilots around here in the MSFS forum."

Well, the question is about the percentage of RW pilots compared to the total amount of users. My x-plane.org fellow told me, in the "good old days" (i.e. up to around X-Plane 9) the majority of its users were RW pilots, due to obvious reasons. They didn't care this much (if at all) for bling bling eye candy, but for simulation of the airplane, the weather etc.. I was told, in FSX you could enter a thunderstorm with the default trike, and what happened? Nothing. It flew calmly through the clouds as if there was no thunderstorm. In MSFS it still isn't better.
As I already wrote, I still use MSFS for sightseeing, but if I want FLIGHT simulation ... ya know ...

 

8 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

I want FLIGHT simulation ... ya know

You should visit the local FBO and have an intro flight.

You are sitting on an office chair at your desk. You are not simulating flight.

1 minute ago, mtaxp said:

Re: inibuilds, I did not say their products are bad, in fact I like them very much. Your constant pre matured assumptions and bias about what you read is not a very good tactic, so read again what excatly I said about their CEO statements.

Lastly, no one is trying to change your mind, no one could care less, but fool me expecting people to backup statements they shout in full confidence.

You should take your own advice... I did not say that you said iniBuilds products are bad, I was just amused by your dismissal of their statement about their MSFS A310 flight model being at par with XP's. When you directly quote/ask me, expect to be responded to, in any way I see fit... For a person who doesn't care about what we think you sure do seem to be around here a lot, jumping in diligently demanding backing up of statements and such 🙂

4 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

You should take your own advice... I did not say that you said iniBuilds products are bad, I was just amused by your dismissal of their statement about their MSFS A310 flight model being at par with XP's. When you directly quote/ask me, expect to be responded to, in any way I see fit... For a person who doesn't care about what we think you sure do seem to be around here a lot, jumping in diligently demanding backing up of statements and such 🙂

I actually edited my post and took that first line back. Anyway, as usual, personal attacks.

Meanwhile 0 proofs of your loud claims.

So lets try again shall we😂

 

Re: CFD & flight model; Unless you are going to prove excatly the outcomes pros and cons and back it up with input/output data those statements are too vague a la tech marketing.

An example for how to do that:

https://developer.x-plane.com/2022/02/x-plane-12-flight-model-update-supersonic-transition-delta-wings-and-mass-properties/

https://developer.x-plane.com/article/x-plane-12-flight-model-report/

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by mtaxp

It's beginning to feel like what's needed is some kind of covert oestrogen distribution system getting built in to all these sims. Maybe some hidden mist spray device activated by the x-axis on all controllers or something.

I am having a quiet day, and figured I'd take a look at a couple of what seemed like possibly interesting threads here. One on the XP forum about some of the new features expected in XP12, which I speed-skimmed as it went for about 27 pages (and is probably well over that now if it hasn't been shut down yet), and one here about the number of posts in the MSFS vs P3D fora, which did get shut down. In both those cases, the amount of pointless one-upmanship and generic willy-waggling reeks of sweaty pre-adolescent testosterone. And this thread feels like it's going the same way.

Why oh why do people have to justify and amplify their own choices by diminishing those of others? It's just a sim - enjoy what you enjoy, there's no need to bash everyone else's choice or "prove" why your choice is best.

Is this the so called "rabid dog" forum? 😀 (BTW, not my invention, this term ...)

36 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

.
As I already wrote, I still use MSFS for sightseeing, but if I want FLIGHT simulation ... ya know ...

 

The good news is that with MSFS you know have an option to do sightseeing WHILE you’re operating a sim with complete systems depth, excellent flight modeling and complete procedural fidelity with the likes of Fenix, PMDG, Milviz… etc (list has been growing so fast in last month or so it’s hard to keep up).  And those have at least as many failure simulations, including factory spec’s mean time between failures.  You don’t have to choose now.  The place you’re flying into with benchmark flight fidelity CAN actually look like the place you’re flying into.

But you’re right, MSFS doesn’t  model bird strikes.  I guess that’s an event you might look forward to after flying hours over repetitive autogen?

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by VFXSimmer