2 hours ago, mpo910 said:

(...) what's bothering us about the PMDG updates (...)

 

Nothing really. If i'm not happy with it, i'll just skip it, invest my money somewhere else or wait until the "right" model comes out if i dislike the 737 736 or whatever comes next. I'm more focused on that lovely MD-11 which is approaching our hangars - Freighter too.

As troublesome as the company can be, the plane is still pretty good. I'm looking forward to the QOL changes that bring it up to par with the current generation of sim (up to and including things like animation smoothing).

That said, I sincerely hope that another developer is also working on high fidelity Boeing aircraft. Competition is healthy in the business environment and will lead to innovation. Personally, I'm getting tired of the "good enough" state that products have been releasing in. Not just PMDG...it seems that software in general has been taking this approach over the last 5 years or so. Scrutiny like this is healthy (to a point) as long as it doesn't turn into bullying. At the end of the day, it's not like they're going to just close up shop and stop making products. I think vocalizing discontent in this case, has been helpful in guiding developers to make far superior products compared to their previous iterations. When the flight simulator community was more niche, I could totally understand walking on eggshells. Now...well, just look at the forums/Reddit/Discord lol.

2 hours ago, psolk said:

And then we wonder why we've seen so many developers drop customer support forums entirely and move to ticketed support only...  

Shall we just all sit around the campfire and have a big hand hold to talk about all the FS developers who have wronged us or abandoned us over the years?  

And then we subsequently wonder why developers abandon this market altogether.   

 

If you are that thin-skinned that every piece of critcism sends you into a tailspin of despair and misery, then maybe the gaming market in 2022 isn't for you. Clearly, I'm talking about measured opinion and debate not about abuse or personal insults.

It's quite simple. PMDG had been the top dog for years and their attitude reflected that in the way it dealt with customers and people overall. Nowadays, they're definitely not on top anymore, with their lackluster 737. I think that people are finally getting a little sick of it and choosing to vote with their wallets. If RSR is as smart as he at least comes off, he'll likely change course and reel it in a little bit. MSFS has introduced a ton of new users that haven't been around very long and frequent forums and sites other than this, where people are much more harsh against PMDG and will likely see the negative press and steer clear. This hopefully will also reel RSR in and have him focus more on innovation and updates, instead of spending time taking down people making good freeware cockpit mods. At least one can hope. 

I heard that PMDG designed the Pelican, because RSR wanted more money. (There you go, chaps - have at it.)

3 hours ago, mpo910 said:

I do not like the promises that are being made and not kept. 

Which ones are these? 

Honest question. The plane has been out for a very short time and has already received multiple updates with long changelogs.  The dev was very honest about what was and was not implemented at launch, and the reasons why. Updates on promised "to come" features indicate that they're progressing well. 

What promise has been made and not kept? 

For my part, I really enjoy the PMDG B737 and the PMDG DC-6 in MSFS. They are two of my favorite aircraft to fly in the sim, and that is up against the wonderful Fenix A320 and JF BAe146, both of which I think are ALSO great aircraft in MSFS that I fully enjoy (not to mention several great GA aircraft too!). I don't harbor any angst at PMDG or any other developer in the sim world. It's gaming after all, or simming if you prefer. No one has pointed a weapon at me to make me buy their aircraft, scenery or other addon. Everything I have for simming I have purchased of my own free will. Some items did not bring me much enjoyment, so I don't use them much or at all any more. Simple as that. I just move on to the next great release, as there are seeming to be many options now days. Meanwhile, I am going to get back to my B737 which I am flying right now 🙂   

Firstly, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the OP starting this thread.  Surely, as someone else said, it is better that it's in a dedicated thread on the subject, rather than PMDG update threads turning into bash threads. 

And who judges what is valuable as a thread here, and what is not?  (That's a rhetorical question - clearly the mods do 😄 - but I mean the inherent value of threads).  I'd rather read a good ol' moan thread, as entertainment, than someone posting (without images) to say they've just had a lovely flight into LAX, with a lovely orange dusk and all was great.

I think the OP is getting some harsh flak - but I will congratulate him for responding to it positively and sticking to his position. 👍

I'm with those that logically suggest splitting the two aspects;  PMDG products, and PMDG comms style.  I don't regret buying the 737 at all - it's fantastic, not perfect (AP simplicity) but fantastically immersive and for those of us with mid range systems who just can't run the Fenix, it's a great all round modern airliner experience, with high frames and no stutters (for me).

The comms - yes, I find it a turn off and the apparant organisational ego and self-congratulation is irksome at times.  But that would never stop me buying a good PMDG product, because that is what's known as "cutting one's nose off, to spite one's face".  I just avoid the PMDG forum and read only the 'mangement summaries' of Rob's update reports.

Finally, at the end of the day, I think PMDG are missing only one critical ingredient - competition.  They've owned the Boing complex airliner scene for decades and I would love to see others in this space, to drive up competition, quality and value.

 

Edited June 24, 20223 yr by JYW

27 minutes ago, JYW said:

Firstly, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the OP starting this thread.  Surely, as someone else said, it is better that it's in a dedicated thread on the subject, rather than PMDG update threads turning into bash threads. 

And who judges what is valuable as a thread here, and what is not?  (That's a rhetorical question - clearly the mods do 😄 - but I mean the inherent value of threads).  I'd rather read a good ol' moan thread, as entertainment, than someone posting (without images) to say they've just had a lovely flight into LAX, with a lovely orange dusk and all was great.

.....

Finally, at the end of the day, I think PMDG are missing only one critical ingredient - competition.  They've owned the Boing complex airliner scene for decades and I would love to see others in this space, to drive up competition, quality and value.

Agreed 100% ... Personally for me it's been more and more fun and worthy of plenty 🍿🍿🍿 lol, reading the laundry lists of stuff various folks are angry with PMDG about both here and on reddit. As you say on reddit especially these are more fun to read sometimes than the same ole boring pics of someone finishing a lovely flight into somewhere. And yup might as well have a separate thread for this here than polluting every PMDG thread. As much as the curiously personal venting that some do against PMDG are funny, the memes are even more so. There seems to a long history for some with PMDG, and regardless of how one views this it is very clear PMDG provokes intense responses across the spectrum.

Yup I wrote about Boeing competition before, and always good when there's competition but it just doesn't look anything is going to happen there on this front any time soon. But given the vast new ecosystem MSFS is spurring on and great new devs like Fenix and others, PMDG might still feel the heat enough to get caught up to the modern ways.  But as long as they keep putting out quality birds, which they're doing, I doubt any aircraft developer is going feel it's worth it to directly compete.... Same reasons why during the FSX and P3D heydays no serious aircraft developer stepped up against PMDG for Boeings.
 

Edited June 24, 20223 yr by lwt1971

4 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Same reasons why during the FSX and P3D heydays no serious aircraft developer stepped up against PMDG for Boeings.
 

Does iFly not count? Thought they were competition at the time anyway....

G

57 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Which ones are these? 

Honest question. The plane has been out for a very short time and has already received multiple updates with long changelogs.  The dev was very honest about what was and was not implemented at launch, and the reasons why. Updates on promised "to come" features indicate that they're progressing well. 

What promise has been made and not kept? 

Not completely rebuild from scratch (so many features are set at odd places and RSR admitted it also)

VNAV will come to the other sim as update. Will at least for a unknown period not happen. The heading of pmdg is clearly MSFS, wich is ok, but the promis was something else. Surely not a postpone for uncertain time. 

I've spend 300 dollar plus on their products. Keep that in mind please. 

 

3 hours ago, Pilot53 said:

Im sure it wont be long before they drop that full name rule on their forums as well.

A rule that they have had in effect for decades is going to fall, just because people complain about it? Not likely.

55 minutes ago, JYW said:

think the OP is getting some harsh flak - but I will congratulate him for responding to it positively and sticking to his position. 👍

That's not any issue for me. I think before I write and my profession as a scrum master at a bank in Germany I have to deal with this often. 

It's important to stay within the lines and keep it respectfull. It's hard needed to tell someone what's good and what could be better or whished. 

Companies need to learn to listen to the customers, at least pick up the red line. Because WE are paying their salary. PMDG has nothing from us when we let them "suffer in silence". 

So telling them.....is a good thing. And I'm sure some of them will read here....and if not....that is worth it. Because here they can read what we want 😉

Marcus

2 minutes ago, mpo910 said:

Not completely rebuild from scratch (so many features are set at odd places and RSR admitted it also)

VNAV will come to the other sim as update. Will at least for a unknown period not happen. The heading of pmdg is clearly MSFS, wich is ok, but the promis was something else. Surely not a postpone for uncertain time. 

I've spend 300 dollar plus on their products. Keep that in mind please. 

 

Even I've done enough programming to know that no complex piece of software is actually "built from scratch."  Frameworks, asset libraries... the use of these things is ubiquitous.  If you have functional assets, why wouldn't you use them?  It certainly doesn't mean you didn't have to rebuild these assets into functional software in a new environment from scratch, vs just porting it over. I think the angst over this one is due to nothing more than a misunderstanding. 

All the products in all the sims have VNAV.  I'm guessing you mean the LNAV update, which PMDG clarified a couple weeks ago is not dead for P3d.  What was meant was that it's not currently on the planning board as all resources are on MSFS.

I mean, I see legit points being raised, and fairly addressed by PMDG.  The "broken promises" thing is just trying to create drama...

8 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

The "broken promises" thing is just trying to create drama..

I don't see it as drama. I mean it's obvious that customers got upset. Otherwise the tone wouldn't be this hard at other topics.

I see it as telling them, they should mind their words and choose them carefully. The MSFS market is much bigger then P3D. And the customers may see sometimes in future a competitor. And if RSR and his employees proceed like this, things can change rapidly. Why is it needed to react in this tone to "your (PMDG) customers?  

Not at all....try to read between the lines. 

Not hard....someone needs to overcome his own shortcoming 😉

Calm down, listen and  stay objective and neutral as possible. 

That's what I expect from a good company. 

Surely not this tone they react with 

 

Edited June 24, 20223 yr by mpo910