19 minutes ago, GoranM said:

You choose to believe the MSFS market is 1000x bigger than P3D?  You choose to believe P3D has a userbase of 10 000 people?

Hey...No problem.  

👍🙄

Can’t you just swallow your pride and just start developing for MSFS? I really liked your products in xplane but we all know where the big bucks is to be picked..  Maybe you can even be able to buy even nicer car than the one you already have… Would love to see your stuff in MSFS… Or is it just a passion for you to hate MSFS?

38 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I really don't want to perpetuate something this trivial.  So let's wrap it up.

We're delving into semantics now.  I know he said "if".  It's obvious he doesn't know actual numbers.  I never assumed he did know actual numbers.  I used his number as a secondary example.  If you misinterpreted what I said, then consider it corrected on an "if".

I'm sorry Goran but you need to man up and admit you were wrong. You cannot dismiss this as "delving into semantics". Abrams was correct when he said you were putting words in his mouth. Saying "even if it was" vs "I think it is" are two very different things and for one of them, it makes absolutely zero sense for you to say, "So you think P3D only has 100000 users?".

From where I'm sitting it looks like you were just made aware of the true meaning of what Abrahms said and now you are trying to backpedal.

 

22 minutes ago, Kaboki said:

Can’t you just swallow your pride and just start developing for MSFS?

It's not about pride.  We've discussed it, and it was on the table once or twice.

I've gone so far as to export the 650 into MSFS, to see how it looked ( minus textures).

22 minutes ago, Kaboki said:

I really liked your products in xplane but we all know where the big bucks is to be picked.

It's not about the money.  I don't want to disclose what I've made, and obviously, it's less than what I would make in MSFS, but it's enough for me to be happy, continue updating products for 2 years now, and have the things I have.  

22 minutes ago, Kaboki said:

Or is it just a passion for you to hate MSFS?

I never said I hated MSFS.  I have a lot of praise for MSFS.  

I started in MSFS, back in FS5.  I bought MSFS last year on Steam to check it out.  It's not a X vs Y thing with me.  I even tried Flight Gear, and I bought P3D a few months ago.  

X-Plane is simply my preference.  It's like asking someone do they prefer McDonalds or Burger King.  I've had both, but I prefer one over the other.

18 minutes ago, Krakin said:

you need to man up and admit you were wrong.

All due respect, I've said all I wanted to say on the matter.  You can believe what you want to believe.  

Edited November 20, 20232 yr by GoranM

15 minutes ago, Kaboki said:

Can’t you just swallow your pride and just start developing for MSFS? I really liked your products in xplane but we all know where the big bucks is to be picked..  Maybe you can even be able to buy even nicer car than the one you already have… Would love to see your stuff in MSFS… Or is it just a passion for you to hate MSFS?

I don’t think it’s a matter of hating on MSFS.  Imagine if you will that you are part of an exclusive club with only a handful of members.  Every Sunday you’d all gather for dinner at Austin’s house and plot the course of XP’s future.  Now, along comes MSFS and instead of being invited to the dinner party, you have to make reservations along with thousands (millions) of others on a first come, first served basis.  That would be a perceived step down on the social ladder.

In other words, it can’t just be about the money.  The above is just one possibility (that no one will admit to of course), but who knows for sure what motivates one person versus another.  I too wish some of the top tier developers (Ixeg, Hotstart) would bring their excellent products to MSFS, but they have both appeared to rule it out completely.  But hey, if they can make a comfortable living over there, more power to them.

6 minutes ago, Gilandred said:

Imagine if you will that you are part of an exclusive club with only a handful of members.  Every Sunday you’d all gather for dinner at Austin’s house and plot the course of XP’s future.  Now, along comes MSFS and instead of being invited to the dinner party, you have to make reservations along with thousands (millions) of others on a first come, first served basis.  That would be a perceived step down on the social ladder.

In other words, it can’t just be about the money.

Great point!!!

1 hour ago, simbol said:

Perhaps is wise to wait for this year Navigraph survey results? it always reveals very useful information about the market and its current user base behaviours. No point getting fighting here, wherever platform you get add-on's for, it means only one thing.. you can enjoy an amazing flight simulation experience.

Enjoy what you have, enjoy what you get, and stop fighting each other, is an unnecessary civil war, you all want the same.. dream to be pilots, so keep dreaming with wherever that helps you to achieve that goal..

Best,

Raul

 

The FS market has expanded so much since MSFS was released that I doubt that the Navigraph survey results will be representative. The Navigraph survey tends to reach serious users rather than casual simmers. The MSFS market isn't 1000x times bigger, that's just hyperbole, but I'd bet that it's 90% of the installed base. 

Edited November 20, 20232 yr by jabloomf1230

19 minutes ago, Gilandred said:

I too wish some of the top tier developers (Ixeg, Hotstart) would bring their excellent products to MSFS. But they have both appeared to rule it out completely

I am not concerned. Any void gets filled, sooner or later. there is plenty talent. and we are only in the year 0003 after MSFS was born.  

31 minutes ago, Krakin said:

I'm sorry Goran but you need to man up and admit you were wrong.

If I followed the thread of reasoning, what Goran did was to take the number of downloads of MSFS, which Microsoft has publicly stated is 10 million, and divided this by 1,000, the purported size of the increase in MSFS from P3D. This would mean that P3D had a user base of about 100,000 users, which Goran is saying is not accurate, as from his knowledge it is actually much larger. This casts some doubt on the statement by RSR that the market is 1,000 times larger. Unfortunately, from the initial post it is difficult to know what RSR actually meant. Was it 1,000 times the full user base or the user base of those who purchase higher fidelity add-ons like PMDG strives to make? Was he trying to make an accurate statement of numerical fact, or trying to give a sense of proportion. This would require us to know more about the context.

However, this said, what is the point of this thread? I do not think anyone is suggesting that MSFS does not have a larger user base than P3D, does the magnitude of that increase matter a great deal? Is larger always better? Are we rooting for the home-team? Is it possible that we can encourage multiple development paths for these simulators, each focusing on different aspects and ultimately contributing to each other? 

2 minutes ago, Cognita said:

what Goran did was to take the number of downloads of MSFS, which Microsoft has publicly stated is 10 million, and divided this by 1,000, the purported size of the increase in MSFS from P3D. This would mean that P3D had a user base of about 100,000 users, which Goran is saying is not accurate,

And the reality is that this calculation is moot because Abrams threw out a hypothetical scenario and Goran is treating it like abrams made a guesstimate. This is why Abrams kept asking him to stop putting words in his mouth.

19 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

The FS market has expanded so much since MSFS was released that I doubt that the Navigraph survey results will be representative. The Navigraph survey tends to reach serious users rather than casual simmers. The MSFS market isn't 1000x times bigger, that's just hyperbole, but I'd bet that it's 90% of the installed base. 

Well, that's better that than trying to base numbers and stats out of the thin air no?.. people want facts, this is the closest we will have.. otherwise anybody can sit here saying anything they want to say and argue all day long if it is true or false.

In passing, I haven't said anything about the market size, is not my place.. only Microsoft can know it, even when I sell add-ons on P3D and MSFS and I have hard numbers on sales in my hands, is impossible for me to say what is the real size of the market since from the add-ons I do sell, I would be seeing only a small proportion of it.. what I can say is, I do sell much more in MSFS vs P3D.. but that is irrelevant on the argument being presented on this topic, or for any user indeed, people should just enjoy the platform they like the most and just be happy they have things to choose from..

Best,
Raul

14 minutes ago, turbomax said:

I am not concerned. Any void gets filled, sooner or later. there is plenty talent. and we are only in the year 0003 after MSFS was born.  

Very true, and also creates a higher level of business risk for those “legacy” developers.  If someone  else brings a study level 737 classic, Challenger 650, or Q400 to MSFS then there could be far less reason to buy and fly those same products in another sim.  

1 hour ago, Kaboki said:

Can’t you just swallow your pride and just start developing for MSFS? I really liked your products in xplane but we all know where the big bucks is to be picked..  Maybe you can even be able to buy even nicer car than the one you already have… Would love to see your stuff in MSFS… Or is it just a passion for you to hate MSFS?

He is just like an engineer of a VHS machines, wishing people would stop streaming, and go back to buying VCRs and VHS Tapes. That is why he appears on any post in the MSFS forum where it looks like he can chime into the conversation with his usual rants on why MSFS isn't that good...So boring. 😉

Edited November 20, 20232 yr by Bobsk8

The market may be 1000 times greater than P3D but the PMDG EFB is 1000 times worse than any other EFB i have seen in the sim!😂

8 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

The market may be 1000 times greater than P3D but the PMDG EFB is 1000 times worse than any other EFB i have seen in the sim!😂

Hogwash..

1 minute ago, Bobsk8 said:

Hogwash..

Name me one that is more dissapointing.