56 minutes ago, GoranM said:

He didn't say a lot of people purchase it for FAA training.  He said a lot of people purchase X-Plane for the flight model

I interpreted it as (negations removed : irrevelant & not)
" FAA approval is relevant if we are talking about the thing that a lot purchase xplane for, flght model"

 

 

21 minutes ago, SAS443 said:

I interpreted it as (negations removed : irrevelant & not)
" FAA approval is relevant if we are talking about the thing that a lot purchase xplane for, flght model"

 

 

Sure, I understand.  Just clarifying that even commercial developers didn't get into X-Plane for its FAA status.  It was a good draw card.  

For me, it just felt better when I first tried the demo of XP9.  

It's an excellent flight sim, for what it offers.  And it appeals to a particular type of flight simmer.  

Even Flight Gear has its own community.  

58 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Even Flight Gear has its own community.  

One could even argue: 'Flightgear is the best available civil desktop simulator' (intentionally in bold 😄), because it is used by a lot of universities:

https://wiki.flightgear.org/Professional_and_educational_FlightGear_users

Still, there would be some people who would argue: 'But universities don't have such high requirements/demands than home users.' Sure, home users are very picky, whereas universities aren't 😄.

X-Plane is also used by many universities for research, although I didn't find one single list like the above for Flightgear. But I have seen  (by using something called 'search eingine' 🙂 ) many diploma thesis, dissertations and investigations using X-Plane.

5 hours ago, SAS443 said:

For the kind of installation XP is certified for - BATD/AATD - flight model is not the focus.

Well it appears to me from this link that the flight modeling is enough to give their consideration by the aircraft developer(Toliss) to offer a commercial version of their aircraft which I believe is running on the same sim for its desktop Pro license. 

https://toliss.com/pages/commercial-use

                                     

 

 

• Desktop PRO Licence

  The Desktop Pro licence is aimed at businesses and private users looking to use the ToLiss Pro software on Desktop only. The Desktop Pro license gives access to commercial usage and the exclusive Pro features.

  (usage ex: teaching materials, commercial presentations, research, entertainment… )

   

   

• Start-Up Simulator Licence

  This license is aimed at private cockpit builders looking to integrate the ToLiss Pro software in their simulators as well as generating some revenue.
  *usage limitations apply

  *option to upgrade to the Simulator Licence within two year.

• Simulator Licence

  The Simulator Licence if for any business looking to use the ToLiss Pro software in a Simulator for any commercial purpose including education, research, entertainment, simulator manufacturing...

  A Simulator is any platform containing hardware components and/or touch screen panels that mimic or represent the real aircraft cockpit (ex: flight training devices, flight management systems or maintenance trainers)

 

 

Edited March 18, 20251 yr by BobFS88

10 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

offer a commercial version of their aircraft

which means nothing as far as FAA approval for their addon goes.

"usage ex: teaching materials, commercial presentations, research, entertainment…"

several "game" components in xplane (helicopters, B47-space shuttle carrier, mars landing etc) have to be removed for an FAA certification.

ok then, I will call my home-made hot air ballon addon for xplane "commercial" et voila, all of a sudden it is FAA approved because it runs on a simulator that (requiring a separate version of xplane) and provided it is combined with several other approved hardware components, can then be used as a FAA approved Flight Training Device. 🤣

6 minutes ago, turbomax said:

which means nothing as far as FAA approval for their addon goes.

If that means nothing, what developer would dare do this on that other sim that relate to following:

• teaching materials
• research

Do you know any serious University or training facility that will risk their accreditation or certification to teach in the name of pretty graphic for a developer who will release a sim based on their schedule that was not ready for primetime? 

What research will they using it for, how to hunt for deer in the forest? 

Their software is use the purposes as stated: 

"for any business looking to use the ToLiss Pro software in a Simulator for any commercial purpose including education, research, entertainment, simulator manufacturing..."

They define the use of the simulator as "A Simulator is any platform containing hardware components and/or touch screen panels that mimic or represent the real aircraft cockpit (ex: flight training devices, flight management systems or maintenance trainers)"

Yes a general definition but still applicable to its use can be infer to a simulator that has been approve for FAA certification if that is going to be use for training purposes for pilots.

 

36 minutes ago, turbomax said:

several "game" components in xplane (helicopters, B47-space shuttle carrier, mars landing etc) have to be removed for an FAA certification.

Which mean they will use XP 12 for Professional which also means as you stated correctly, "have to be remove for an FAA certification" which from LR  statement "The FAA-certified version also has some of the purely fun stuff (like space flight) removed–even though those situations are simulated accurately in X-Plane, just like the FAA-certified subsonic terrestrial flight."  Which from our point of view as is the type of care that is given to this simulator as to what matters the most to us as users which includes the flight modeling and anything else that that goes in the sim.  

Say what you want about Xplane, I posted below what Xplane is base on what LR calls it. Tell them you don't agree with their definition of how their pro version in relation to getting FAA certification or tell Toliss you don't agree how they pro version of their aircraft as how it will not lead to the use of a some type of training that may required FAA certification hardware. I don't see any of this below be offered from that other sim that foster a of crowd users that does not care if an aircraft deep system are not modeled that like to claim their the best.

https://www.x-plane.com/pro/

What makes it "X-Plane for Professional Use"?

It includes all the features of the home-use version of X-Plane 12 Global.

It licenses your simulator for commercial use (that is, any use of X-Plane outside of your own personal use in your own personal home.) This license is also required for generating revenue, either directly or indirectly, using X-Plane.

It provides hardware and frame-rate checks required for FAA certification of the simulator.

It unlocks features of the simulator not available in X-Plane 12 Global. Specifically – the ability to use cylindrical and spherical projection (as found in large simulators).

So, to build a simulator for professional use, simply:

buy the X-Plane 12 Professional-Use Digital Download, or

buy a professional-use USB key, and download and install the HASP USB key driver.

Note that you will need one pro-use license—whether digital download or USB key—per computer if you’re planning a multi-machine simulator.

For professional-caliber flight sim hardware, we recommend Precision Flight Controls.

 

FAA-Certified X-Plane

Any copy of X-Plane purchased from X-Plane.com can have the features required for FAA certification unlocked using a special USB key or digital download product key. However, getting the actual certification through the FAA takes a great deal more work than getting the X-Plane software ready.

Certification requires not only that the user have the certified X-Plane software, but also certified hardware (cockpit and flight controls) available through companies like Precision Flight Controls and GLEIM Aviation. This is because flight training systems can only be certified as a complete package (a software and hardware combination). The certified software is available for $500 to $1,000 per copy from PFC and GLEIM and the hardware runs from around $8,000 to $500,000 depending on your needs. The retail version of X-Plane purchased at X-Plane.com is not certified for flight training right out of the box, since certification requires a software and hardware combination. However, the software available for about $60 at X-Plane.com is almost identical what is found in the $500,000 full-motion FAA-certified platforms. The biggest difference is that the FAA-certified versions have custom aircraft files with larger instrument panels, which are set up to work with hardware radios like those found in the physical cockpits. The FAA-certified version also has some of the purely fun stuff (like space flight) removed–even though those situations are simulated accurately in X-Plane, just like the FAA-certified subsonic terrestrial flight.

There is nothing stopping users from getting in touch with the FAA and working through the steps to certification from there. However, most users will find that it is more efficient to purchase a simulator already certified by GLEIM or PFC.

X-Plane.org conducted a quick interview with Mike Altman, president of PFC. For a quick overview of PFC’s certified simulator and the design behind them, read the interview here.

 

 

 

 

 

  

1 hour ago, BobFS88 said:

What research will they using it for, how to hunt for deer in the forest? 

Ok, I have to admit, I did laugh at that one.  

But don't forget MUH PEBBLES!!

"Pebble Simulator" anyone?

2 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

If that means nothing,

It's not an argument. Opinions do not matter in this context.

The regulations for fixed base sims, weither it is FAA AATD/BATD  or EASA FNPT indicate the value of advanced flight models, which is low..

And I repeat, that is not *my* opinion. There is no subjective take on the topic, just because you "feel" it should matter.

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

It's not an argument. Opinions do not matter in this context.

The regulations for fixed base sims, weither it is FAA AATD/BATD  or EASA FNPT indicate the value of advanced flight models, which is low..

And I repeat, that is not *my* opinion. There is no subjective take on the topic, just because you "feel" it should matter.

Level D sims are using tables and not a flow-simulation like XP as far as I know. Facts at the end are that XP is being used in a « serious » setting like research, flying schools or aircraft manufacturers developping new aircrafts, even if most users use it for entertainment. MSFS is only being used for entertainment. Just accept that difference.

3 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

What research will they using it for, how to hunt for deer in the forest?

😂

39 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

MSFS is only being used for entertainment. Just accept that difference.

we are not debating anything MSFS. You keep mentioning that title repeatedly.

We are "debating" how the flight model is relevant to an FAA approval (BATD/AATD/FNPT)

I have shown the requirements. But still some people feel it "must mean something".

The answer is still "no", Franz.

 

Edited March 18, 20251 yr by SAS443

remove.

Edited March 18, 20251 yr by SAS443

9 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

One could even argue: 'Flightgear is the best available civil desktop simulator' (intentionally in bold 😄), because it is used by a lot of universities:

https://wiki.flightgear.org/Professional_and_educational_FlightGear_users

Still, there would be some people who would argue: 'But universities don't have such high requirements/demands than home users.' Sure, home users are very picky, whereas universities aren't 😄.

X-Plane is also used by many universities for research, although I didn't find one single list like the above for Flightgear. But I have seen  (by using something called 'search eingine' 🙂 ) many diploma thesis, dissertations and investigations using X-Plane.

FlightGear's biggest appeal for universities is its price tag and licensing, I guess.

just to quickly chime in on the FAA debate.

the "FAA certified" thing is completely insignificant vs the "fairly priced commercial licence" thing.

it's the commercial licence that is a big deal, afaik no XP12 is even _AA certified yet and won't be until it has finished getting updates.

Don't you guys get bored of discussing the same stuff over and over?

Here's some new meat for 12.2