2 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

What I still don't understand is why no high end developer is bringing something comparable to the Hotstart Challenger 650 to the addon market. 

At a rough stab in the dark I would guess at the shear development time needed to do it.

I've still not seen anything close to that one, then again you do pay for that level of detail (in my case it also cost the price of the sim), but worth every penny.

Perhaps we will get a Black Square business jet one day? 

G

6 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

What I still don't understand is why no high end developer is bringing something comparable to the Hotstart Challenger 650 to the addon market. 

MSFS is not as open a platform as X-Plane

3 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

MSFS is not as open a platform as X-Plane

Tell that to Black Square and A2A. I mean not to glaze FBW, but feel free to look at the NOTAMs we published on our fly-by-wire implementation or our hydraulic simulation. Or even the heat transfer modelling that Fenix does.

2 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

Tell that to Black Square and A2A. I mean not to glaze FBW, but feel free to look at the NOTAMs we published on our fly-by-wire implementation or our hydraulic simulation. Or even the heat transfer modelling that Fenix does.

You can do a lot, but the fact is the MSFS runs in a deliberately restrictive sandbox.

X-Plane doesn't.

This isn't really up for debate it's literally a base fact about how the sims are built.

Edited July 11, 2025Jul 11 by Matchstick

8 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

What I still don't understand is why no high end developer is bringing something comparable to the Hotstart Challenger 650 to the addon market. 

Stay tuned for the FSR Phenom 300E! 100% native 2024 with advanced system depth!

2 hours ago, Matchstick said:

You can do a lot, but the fact is the MSFS runs in a deliberately restrictive sandbox.

X-Plane doesn't.

This isn't really up for debate it's literally a base fact about how the sims are built.

I don’t really think you understand what you’re saying about sandboxes. 

The BS Starship is more than enough to demonstrate MSFS can handle Hotstart level fidelity.

if you prefer to double down and bury your head in the sand about it, sure go ahead, but you’d benefit from at least attempting to developing on both platforms rather than parroting Reddit comments.

25 minutes ago, The Flight Level said:

Stay tuned for the FSR Phenom 300E! 100% native 2024 with advanced system depth!

And perhaps an updated HJET?

dd

Lol, I work with sandboxed systems for a living but if you need to pretend that doesn't place restrictions on how you are allowed to with the system then knock yourself out.

As for the A2A Planes the Comanche is the best small GA plane I've flown but from everything I can see it's significant less complex than the CL650. ( A large part of that is down to the fact that the Comanche is a far simpler plane with far systems than the Challenger but it doesn't invalidate the observation)

Edited July 11, 2025Jul 11 by Matchstick

46 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

Lol, I work with sandboxed systems for a living but if you need to pretend that doesn't place restrictions on how you are allowed to with the system then knock yourself out.

Every sandbox environment has varying levels of restrictions. I’m sure with your years of experience you’d know that. Again if you’d attempt developing in MSFS rather than parroting comments you’d know better but I digress.

 

47 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

As for the A2A Planes the Comanche is the best small GA plane I've flown but from everything I can see it's significant less complex than the CL650.

And the black square starship? You can’t possibly say it is less complex cause it’s a GA too, considering the capabilities of the starship.

31 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

Every sandbox environment has varying levels of restrictions. I’m sure with your years of experience you’d know that. Again if you’d attempt developing in MSFS rather than parroting comments you’d know better but I digress.

I dunno... someone who works with FBW in MSFS or someone who works with sandboxed systems for a living. I'm having a hard time figuring out who the subject matter expert is here, but these forums never fail to amuse. (Also, you're probably arguing with a brick wall at this point, but I do enjoy when devs speak up about what what's being accomplished in the sim)

12 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

What I still don't understand is why no high end developer is bringing something comparable to the Hotstart Challenger 650 to the addon market. 

I'd argue the Citation Longitude and the more recent Black Square birds are in the same league.

IIRC, Nick the BS lead dev, directly compared the complexity of the BS Starship to the Hot Start 650. (not that his is "better", but is as complex and deep).

In re the Longitude, check out @MattNischan's 2 HOUR deep dive on the Longitude:

 

Matt - is there any similar info on all that you folks have done for the TBM...? or CJ4?

 

@Matchstick @Gazzareth

Edited July 12, 2025Jul 12 by UrgentSiesta

5 hours ago, Matchstick said:

You can do a lot, but the fact is the MSFS runs in a deliberately restrictive sandbox.

X-Plane doesn't.

This isn't really up for debate it's literally a base fact about how the sims are built.

So restrictive that Fenix can import another developer's entire avionics stack...?

That A2A Simulations ran their entire aircraft as it's own sim and only used MSFS as a scenery generator...?

Or so restrictive that Toliss is going to run their own proprietary cross-platform Airbus code in BOTH X-Plane and MSFS...?

10 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

So restrictive that Fenix can import another developer's entire avionics stack...?

That A2A Simulations ran their entire aircraft as it's own sim and only used MSFS as a scenery generator...?

Or so restrictive that Toliss is going to run their own proprietary cross-platform Airbus code in BOTH X-Plane and MSFS...?

And for the A2A Comanche, they even got it to work on the XBox.

I wonder what @Matchstick means by restrictive sandbox on the PC for MSFS.

1 hour ago, abrams_tank said:

And for the A2A Comanche, they even got it to work on the XBox.

I wonder what @Matchstick means by restrictive sandbox on the PC for MSFS.

I mean a the sim run within a sandbox that restricts access to the sim to just published APIs.

You can run WASM modules within that sandbox but you have to obey the restrictions of the sandbox.

Edited July 12, 2025Jul 12 by Matchstick

1 hour ago, Matchstick said:

I mean a the sim run within a sandbox that restricts access to the sim to just published APIs.

You can run WASM modules within that sandbox but you have to obey the restrictions of the sandbox.

But then you have the Fenix process, that runs outside whatever sandbox you are referring to. And I believe the Fenix process can do whatever it wants, it can even alter Windows files (if granted permission) and do anything an executable can on the PC.

As for “within the sandbox” claim you make, I’ll let @Lucky38i verify if what you say it true, since Lucky38i is an FBW developer.

Edited July 12, 2025Jul 12 by abrams_tank