2 minutes ago, AnkH said:

But further providing a beta branch inside an EA product with the ridiculous claim to «support the devs» is just...

FSHud named it Version 2 and sold it again (and another version to make it 2024 compatible). You even had no choice if paying or not.
SayIntensions make an abo, also no other choice.

 

I do not defend BATC it's just aother dev as all others and as you say, all of these ATC tools have their weaknesses.
but to critisize just the BATC apporach while all others have also their "tricks" do get our money, is not fair.
It's one apporach and no one is forced to use it!
You even do not miss anything, you just have to wait and get then a more polished version.

oh, and to add: even companies as A2A had to choose the way of early access as seen with their latest AeroStar.
However others, e.g. PMDG find other ways to fund their development, aka coffee

9 minutes ago, guenseli said:

...but to critisize just the BATC apporach while all others have also their "tricks" do get our money...

I just wonder why people do that. I will never pay money to be a beta tester (the other way around it is 😉).

Early Access, fine with me. At least you already own it, when it's finished. Some software is worth of using it early, even if it has flaws. And some isn't.

But additional money to be a ("honored") beta tester?? Strange approach.

Edited March 1Mar 1 by Watsi

Two big fat thumbs down for BATC.

Mostly, because the vectoring is word not allowed. 

And "early access" is a term invented to separate suckers from their money. 

Maybe, next time, my money is also early access: I'll give you have a Bennie - you get the other half, when the product is done. My Bennies are early access.😉

Edited March 1Mar 1 by Ricardo41

25 minutes ago, guenseli said:

As I said above, developing an ATC tool (better said a modern ATC tool, because I don't want to argue with you about Radar Contact and PF3) seems to be a very difficult task. Otherwise we would have seen one since a long time as it would be a money maker

I agree it's extremely difficult and explains why so few are available and in a decent state. Knowledge of trig is essential. Then you have phraseology for FAA and ICAO areas. I suppose that info might be available on the web these days. 20 years ago it wasn't.

27 minutes ago, guenseli said:

Of course, if you jump as early adopter onto every early access release, you will have bad experiences earlier or later.

Yes, I agree it's a choice. What I disagree with having to pay extra for a program that's probably less stable.

25 minutes ago, tttocs said:

There's nothing magical about the word "beta". 

I'm sorry but there is. Alpha testing is usually done by the developer and new features can be added. Beta testing is where bugs are fixed and crucially, no new features are added. Release Candidate is available to buy and may include more obscure bug fixes. No new features.

"Early Access" is something that never existed 20 years ago. Developers just never went down that path.

30 minutes ago, guenseli said:

But even with ready built products you have a risc: remember the PRO ATX/X "scam" .

Yes, I remember it but never tried it. I suspect the developer bit off more than he could chew or perhaps personal circumstances made it impossible for him to continue. Not responding to support requests did for him.

33 minutes ago, Fromage_Flippant said:

i don't recall microsofts marketing ever saying 'MSFS 2024 buy the early release now for full price and spend a year testing it for us'

too many apples against one orange. 🤣

we knew they had to and they would and they did fix the problems. MSFS2024 is in a very very acceptable state with great fps performance.

but:

• "I was holding short, first in line. BATC tells me on am 3rd in line, but we are all stuck. I had to line up, then BATC gave the plane behind me clearance to takeoff, and started screaming at me. 
• BATC regularly repeats the same instructions to AI pilots over and over. 
• Of course, vectoring me in the opposite direction where i need to go, or just forgetting about me. "

plus being vectored into terrain, in its current state all too much to pay for. I will revisit BATC if/when the beta testers confirm it's ready for take off.

15 minutes ago, Watsi said:

But additional money to be a ("honored") beta tester?? Strange approach.

they nowhere say it's a beta test.
"Show your support to the BeyondATC team and get an early taste of our features under active development!"

they simply beg for money and you "get" a little something for it. If you jion this stage of development a little earlier or not, does not make a big difference. It's just supporting. You don't miss anything if you don't do it.

Alright I don't feel like joining the argument here between a site mod and the rest of the guys, just saying again that help can be found on Discord. You can also just tag me directly there (same username as here) and I can work that out with you in a separate thread. I'm not a dev, but a "power user" for 2 years and community helper, so I've seen a lot of things and quickly see the patterns.

31 minutes ago, tttocs said:

You obviously do to - or I guess you would if you were an MSFS user?  But none of that makes BATC wrong in how they're managing their product.

No, I'm here purely for my interest in ATC programs for flight simulation.

I'm not saying their wrong. Just expressing an opinion that's all. Paying to test is something I've never done and never will.

1 minute ago, Fiorentoni said:

Alright I don't feel like joining the argument here between a site mod and the rest of the guys

Feel free to discuss with me. I'm here purely as an interested party in ATC programs for flight simulation. And it's a discussion, not an argument. 

I supported it for a good while, as well as FSHUD... 

Unfortunately neither runs in Linux, nor work with X-Plane or Flight Gear which are going to become my only civil sims in a question of weeks after jumping to Linux for good 🙂

But I will surely miss BATC, and even FSHUD which I also used with P3D...

Maybe I'll engage in Say Intentions... maybe...

11 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

41 minutes ago, tttocs said:

There's nothing magical about the word "beta". 

I'm sorry but there is. Alpha testing is usually done by the developer and new features can be added. Beta testing is where bugs are fixed and crucially, no new features are added. Release Candidate is available to buy and may include more obscure bug fixes. No new features.

"Early Access" is something that never existed 20 years ago. Developers just never went down that path.

No need to be pedantic, I'm well aware of what traditional software lifecycles look like.  I used the term "magical" for a reason, as beta is often used here as though if it were some mystical rune set in stone.

No, "Early Access" didn't exist 20 years ago.  A lot of things didn't, some good, some bad, but it does now and has proven to be very popular, with many users.  You would never buy an early access product?  Great.  Don't.  As it happens I never have either (though I'm very occasionally tempted).   But I get why some people like them and with a reputable company it can be a win-win so long as everyone's open and informed about what's going on.  In other words, done properly its a perfectly legitimate alternate lifecycle.  Even if it's not for me or you.

 

Scott

4 minutes ago, tttocs said:

No need to be pedantic,

I’m not. I used to be a COBOL programmer for my employer and there were rules about how software was developed, tested and released to the customer (colleagues).

Early Access is a new thing and users pay their money and take their choice.

1 hour ago, guenseli said:

 

 

1 hour ago, guenseli said:

FSHud named it Version 2 and sold it again (and another version to make it 2024 compatible). You even had no choice if paying or not.
SayIntensions make an abo, also no other choice.

 

A little sunday afternoon whataboutism 🤣

Edited March 1Mar 1 by AnkH

29 minutes ago, AnkH said:

A little sunday afternoon whataboutism

It's about the different financing methods. These are the direct competitors, each having their own method.
It's not whataboutism if you name sth and give examples how others do it.

Whataboutism is, if you talk about something and then talk/ask about something complete different. Some use stock exchange, some even do whataboutism by naming things whataboutism.

 

But we shouldn't derail it more, the whole thread is about the BATC Update and not its pricing model.
Too bad that some moderators don't take care and even are part of this derailing.