How you spend your free time doesn't merit this much energy.

I'm just posting once and leaving it be, so here it is. Most people know where I stand on this topic by now.

Why is it that every time a conversation about FS9 comes up a lot (and I am not saying all or making generalizations here) but a lot of FSX users jump in and bash FS9 like it is some inferior good for nothing sim and everyone associated it with it is poor or good for nothing just like the sim?

Why do FS9 users make whole threads about how FSX sucks?

Do FSX simmers forget that the engine FSX is built around is FS9? Do users forget all the YEARS of enjoyment FS9 brought us? Do simmers realize that had it not been for FS9 there would probably be no FSX? Do FSX users forget the level of realism AC like the PMDG 737/747/MD11 the RFP 747-200 and SO many others brought us? It reminds me of the Harley Davidson rider who thumbs his nose at a guy riding any other bike.

Most of these have nothing to do with anything. If FS9 wouldn't have brought us complex aircraft, FSX would have. And it has.I don't forget the thousands of hours I spent flying FS9. That doesn't make it better in any way shape or form. As of now I probably have more hours on FS5.1, does that make it better than FSX?No.

It is sad and disheartening to see the blatant superiority complex SOME FSX users feel over their FS9 counterparts.

4 words- LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

AND BY NO MEANS am I dismissing FS9 users from this equation at all. For the most part a lot of FS9 users (myself included at times) have not helped our cause by some of the FSX criticisms by FS9 users. No one is without blame here.

That is why you only say this only once in your whole post?

But and this is a big BUT, why is their such a negative disposition to FS9? What did it ever do wrong?

I can only speak for myself here. I don't like FS9 a really excited user now because they don't want to move along. They are constantly badgering developers to keep making products for their archaic simulator. It is DEFINITELY holding back FSX from being what it could be. Just now, CLS is making a native FSX plane, 3 and a half years after its release. No doubt that if more people used FSX during those 3.5 years, they would have went native sooner.The single biggest reason I dislike FS9 a really excited user is because they are wrong and spread misinformation. The worst part is when they start using statistics without knowing how. They love to throw numbers around without actually thinking about where they came from or what they really mean.So my negativity isn't towards the sim itself, just the a really excited user that would preach it until they die. I loved FS9, but I have moved on to a superior simulator.

Was it so worthless for all those years that you weren't really enjoying it? Or does a lot of this come from FSX users who never even simmed with FS9 and do not appreciate how much it has brought to our hobby and how critical it was for the development of FSX?

Again, nothing to do with anything. I don't praise FS 5.1 anymore.

And to the bigger point, why is anyone who still chooses to use FS9 deemed to be immediately inferior or from a lower economic standing than an FSX user? Trust me, people don't want to start comparing W-2's here but I am just so disheartened by the constant insulting of FS9 users and FS9 in itself I wanted to try and understand where it comes from and what if anything can be done to remedy this situation and allow us to just share our love of FS regardless of our choice of sim...

Originally, many people stayed away from FSX for monetary reasons. When it came out, a computer that could run it well was not cheap. Finally in the last year or so, they have become more affordable (core 2 duo E8400-8600, core 2 Quad q9x50 series). Most FS9 users who are left are the a really excited user who think FS9 still has better sales than FSX. I had some real diehard FS9 fans in my group of friends and once they could afford FSX machines, they never looked back even once.

And for all the FS9 users myself included that does mean coming to terms that the development hayday of FS9 has long past and if you are going to stay with it you should for the most part be happy with what we have and NOT expect developers to churn out FS9 releases the same way they did in the past. We do not always do ourselves favors by assuming every release is going to be FS9 compatible although we are CERTAINLY grateful when it is!!! There is a certain level of reality that has to be faced if choosing to remain with FS9. So I do not hold FS9 users in a white light with a halo around their head either, I see both sides but again, I do not understand the animosity, the lack of appreciation for FS9 and what it is and was; and the insults strewn at FS9 and its users...

Too bad they haven't come to terms that FSX sales are way higher, along with the number of users. You must not spend much time down in the PMDG forum...Where's that mirror?

That is my .02 for the day, As Mr. Rogers once said, would you be mine, could you be mine, won't you be my neighbor...I think it is time we put this conversation on the table once and for all and we should all address the 800 pound gorilla in the room and possibly by talking through some of this we can come to a middle ground with a respect and appreciation for all sims and all simmers.

It is time to leave the conversation behind. It sucks coming onto AVSIM and seeing stuff like this pop up all the time. 90% of the time it is started by FS9 a really excited user though. (oh, now I'm just pulling statistics out of my rear end too, never mind)I'll come to a middle ground when the FS9 a really excited user do. Nothing against AVSIM itself, but there are more a really excited user here than any other forum for ANYTHING I've ever seen. Even the photography forum I frequent isn't like this (a forum that dwarfs this one in size). Sure some Nikon vs Canon debates come up from time to time, but not like this. This topic is very much like atheism vs theism. It is getting old and will never go anywhere until one side is completely gone.So just to conclude- my beef is with FS9 a really excited user, not FS9.Enjoy ripping apart my post as I have yours. I'll read but I won't be responding though. Try not to kill me with a laugh attack! Many FS9 users have caused me pain because their comments are so funny. :(And a quick edit: I Looked at the same thread in the FS9 forum and I got a couple laugh attacks. :D

So, Kiwikat, if I get this correctly anyone who prefers FS9 and has a opinion is a a really excited user, yet you prefer FSX and have a opinion but you are not a a really excited user of FSX? BTW, if this had all read as; if I get this correctly anyone who prefers FSX and has a opinion is a a really excited user, yet you prefer FS9 and have a opinion but you are not a a really excited user of FS9? I would be asking the same question. That is the kind of response that causes issues that I think Paul's theme on this topic were meant to try to put to rest and to avoid the needless electronic 'bloodshed'. IT'S BAD FOR THE FLIGHT SIM HOBBY! But it is a well know fact that some people just can not keep their opinions behind their zippers because they think theirs is bigger. That is my opinion, and if anyone dares disagree, it is because they are (insert derogatory label here) *** high degree of sarcasm here ***We have two relatively good Flight Simulators (or more) to play with, and I do mean play. That is much better than none is it not?Kiwikat I meant no disrespect whatsoever. You are entitled to your opinion, just as we all are. However I will say your sense of humor is based on something besides open mindedness, so your sarcasm was more humorous than what you read that you think was 'funny'. You are what you were laughing at.Best regards to all, no matter which Sim you prefer, :( Mel

So, Kiwikat, if I get this correctly anyone who prefers FS9 and has a opinion is a a really excited user

OK I'll break my policy so people understand my post. I will not add further to the conversation though. People have a tendency to pick out certain portions or put words in my mouth when I post on topics like these.I never said that anyone who prefers FS9 is a a really excited user. I know plenty of FS9 users who aren't. You didn't understand it correctly.

I'm just posting once and leaving it be, so here it is. Most people know where I stand on this topic by now.Why do FS9 users make whole threads about how FSX sucks?

I don't know, really havent seen to many of those to be honest and that certainly not what this thread was about?

4 words- LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Why? Where am I coming across as a a really excited user or trying to push my opinion or being negative about anyone else or FSX at all??? I started a completely civilized thread to try and understand where peoples mindsets were at that has churned out some really good responses and have nothing to look in the mirror about although when I do I am damn proud of the person I see.

That is why you only say this only once in your whole post?

Did you read all of my posts, I repeatedly state FS9 users are no Angels, I say this entire discussion can be turned around the other way as Andre and others have pointed out. How many times do I have to state something for it to be acceptable? I admit my own shortcomings in the past and the only thing you can do is find something negative to say? Kudos...

I can only speak for myself here. I don't like FS9 a really excited user now because they don't want to move along. They are constantly badgering developers to keep making products for their archaic simulator. It is DEFINITELY holding back FSX from being what it could be. Just now, CLS is making a native FSX plane, 3 and a half years after its release. No doubt that if more people used FSX during those 3.5 years, they would have went native sooner.

The hardware wasn't there for the performance required until the past 12-14 months, that is why FSX has had a slower adoption rate, not because of FS9 a really excited user hindering its develpment...

Originally, many people stayed away from FSX for monetary reasons. When it came out, a computer that could run it well was not cheap. Finally in the last year or so, they have become more affordable (core 2 duo E8400-8600, core 2 Quad q9x50 series). Most FS9 users who are left are the a really excited user who think FS9 still has better sales than FSX. I had some real diehard FS9 fans in my group of friends and once they could afford FSX machines, they never looked back even once.

Anyone who believes that FS9 sales are greater than FSX sales is sadly disillusioned... By the same respect all you have to do is look at Mitch's FS9.75 thread to see that there are still folks with high end machines enjoying FS9 as well. We all know people have traditionally said FSX for low and slow and FS9 for above FL300 but with today's hardware and gifts from users like ******* that isn't the case (as much) anymore. I too can see myself flying the heavies in FSX by the time PMDG releases the 777.

Too bad they haven't come to terms that FSX sales are way higher, along with the number of users. You must not spend much time down in the PMDG forum...Where's that mirror?

Again, did you read where I agree the numbers are not in FS9 sales anymore and that I agree with the developers decisions or did you just jump on the chance to try and put down another forum member?

I'll come to a middle ground when the FS9 a really excited user do. Nothing against AVSIM itself, but there are more a really excited user here than any other forum for ANYTHING I've ever seen. Even the photography forum I frequent isn't like this (a forum that dwarfs this one in size). Sure some Nikon vs Canon debates come up from time to time, but not like this. This topic is very much like atheism vs theism. It is getting old and will never go anywhere until one side is completely gone.

Funny I could have sworn this ENTIRE post was about coming to a middle ground...

So just to conclude- my beef is with FS9 a really excited user, not FS9.

Fair enough, I can understand that...

Enjoy ripping apart my post as I have yours. I'll read but I won't be responding though. Try not to kill me with a laugh attack! Many FS9 users have caused me pain because their comments are so funny. :(

I do not get enjoyment out of ripping peoples post apart or trying to put them down or call them names as you state you do and I am sorry you find me so humorous, hopefully this retort hasn't split your sides too badly I wouldn't want my opinion to kill you with a laugh attack...I also love the fact you complain about people picking out excerpts from your posts when that is what your entire response to me was... Hmmm, perhaps I am not the only one requiring a look in the mirror...

I also love the fact you complain about people picking out excerpts from your posts when that is what your entire response to me was... Hmmm, perhaps I am not the only one requiring a look in the mirror...

Nope, I picked apart your whole post as you did mine. I don't agree with you but I thank you for not distorting what I said, for what it is worth. =)And I apologize if you felt you were targeted as being a a really excited user. That wasn't really my intent. I was aimed more towards the horde than at you. It is just many of the things you said were what the horde says too. Forums aren't good at getting across intent.And one last thing before work- I see that you were more fair in your post in the FS9 area. I wrote my post here before I checked your thread in the FS9 section. I probably wouldn't have mentioned this if I had read it prior.

That is why you only say this only once in your whole post?

You can certainly tell the library is down. :( Look at where we all are.Regards,Mel

Nope, I picked apart your whole post as you did mine. I don't agree with you but I thank you for not distorting what I said, for what it is worth. =)And I apologize if you felt you were targeted as being a a really excited user. That wasn't really my intent. I was aimed more towards the horde than at you. It is just many of the things you said were what the horde says too. Forums aren't good at getting across intent.

Greatly appreciated William. I have a think skin,(meant thick but think skin will work too LOL) I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't ;)... I also do understand what you are saying which is why I said a vocal minority of FS9 users have really soured the FSX users opinion of the FS9 user... I think most FS9 users as myself do see the value in FSX, do see some of the advancements in FSX and are glad that HW is catching up to FSX's development capabilities.... I would like to think there is a mutual respect and that was the entire basis for my post.I agree, the written world is very difficult to determine intent, tone or sarcasm amongst other things. Mel has said it very well, at the end of the day, sim or game this is a hobby that we should all enjoy and be able to respect each others opinions.Most of all we should be able to express them in non-demeaning or derogatory ways that turn users away from the forums for good... To be honest I think that was the point I was at today, I have been around the forums for a long time, would like to think I have made my fair share of contributions over the years but was not enjoying these forums anymore because of all the animosity. So I wanted to post this topic in part to see if my own impressions were skewed or if it really was a good time to just stop frequenting the forums altogether...For the most part I think there has been a lot of good feedback in the post and it has certainly helped me look a the flip side of the entire argument!All the best everyone, safe flights wherever FS takes you!!!Paul

Hey Paul, I thought I would give my opinion from what I observe.I have been using a form of flight sim since the 80's version from subLogic and have continued up to now having used FS2002, FS9 and now FSX. Out of all the sims it wasn't it was until FS9 came out that I really took a lot of interest in the sim. In fact, due to having had FS9 longer than I have had FSX, I have probably logged more hours in FS9 than all the sims combined. When the developers first released the FSX demo I installed it on my old computer that I had been using FS9 on and it looked and performed really bad. It was at that time that I thought I am either going to have to stick with FS9 or build a new computer. In the end I built a new computer and now use FSX exclusively and contrary to what I read a lot about how FSX is only good for low and slow flying, I primarely fly airliners with no issues.All that being said, I have nothing against FS9, FS9 users, or people that develope products for FS9 only.However, what does upset me is when 1. Some FS9 users spread so much misinformation about FSX due to the way FSX either performs on their own system or how they heard FSX performs2. The claims like I mentioned above about how FS9 is far superior for flying airliners3. When a comparison screen shot of FS9 and FSX is posted of the same scenery and FS9 users post how the FS9 version, even with the lower res textures and a little blurriness still looks better when, unless your vision is really bad, the FSX shot in the comparision clearly looks better.4. Like Andre said in his post, when you post something about how you like FSX, the FS9 only users will tell you how wrong you are even yellingPersonally I could care less what version of the sim a person uses, but from comments I read on Avsim, it seems that I see more FS9 users bashing FSX than I see FSX users bashing FS9, or I see more posts giving reasons to stay with FS9 than to move onto FSX.About a month ago I though I would install FS9 on my system again with the same addon airports, Ge Pro, UT USA, LDS767, etc., just to see how much different it would be from FSX and if the performance was really that much better. After spending about 3 days getting FS9 installed and setup I took a few test flights using the LDS 767 with 100% commercial traffic and flew into a couple big hubs and noted the performance and looks. Then I did the same with FSX using the same conditions. Surprisingly, FS9 wasn't that much better than the performance I am getting FSX and it looked a lot worse, namely the ground textures (GE Pro). I was really surprised that on my system FSX gave me a more enjoyable flight even into big hubs with lots of AI than FS9 did. I haven't even used FS9 again from the day that I did the test.I just wish that everyone would just respect what ever version of flight sim others use and leave the FS9 or FSX bashing alone. Will it ever happen? I doubt it. There's still going to be those with banners in their sig that say things like "FSX is dead.... Long live FS9" or the threads that pop up every now and then saying how bad FSX is and that everyone should stick to it because it is a more solid sim. Truthfully though I see more people defending FS9 or trying to find reasons to stick with it, than I see people posting why you should move to FSX from FS9. Surprisingly, I have seen a few diehard FS9's just recently saying that they have decided they are going to make the switch at some point in the near future, after spending the last year or two saying that they would never leave FS9 and how it was much better.The debate will never end until at some point a new great sim comes out that everyone with somewhat modern equipment can run and get good performance and visuals in any flying situation. Even then there will be debates on using the new sim or sticking with FSX/FS9.Regards,Sean

I did the same thing a few months ago, right after I bought my current system. I installed FS9. I took a quick flight and immediately reformatted my drive. I never went back to FS9.Today, the experience I see and feel is better than the real thing. FSX is so enjoyable and so beautiful. That's because so many people have contributed to making FSX what it is today. It was worth the wait!In short, it all depends on what WE experience and how we feel.

"No one is without blame here.With all due respect this statement is not true. I have never "bashed" anyone on any forum boards, either here or elsewhere, for their preference of one version of MSFS over another. To each their own. And I have no doubt that the vast majority of members here at AVSIM can honestly say the same thing.It seems to me that the only people that have some kind of "issue" with this topic are those who have "issues" period.Do not mistake this response as an attempt to label anyone or any position expressed in this thread in a negative way. Just trying to offer an objective observation to the topic at hand.Regards :(

"No one is without blame here.Regards :(

FSX Rockssss. FS9 Rockssss if you enjoy your flying and it works. Thats the bottom line. These SIMULATORS are just that, a replacement for all us pilots who do fly the real thing and those who want to fly the real thing.Carl Perry 7+ year sim pliot

So this is a serious question that really irks me and I am intentionally posting it in the FSX forum as you are the users I want to hear from first hand...Sincerely,Paul Solk

I'm going to post without reading all the previous responses first heheI'm not a huge FS9 basher (publicly), but privately, I feel FS9 is crap compared to FSX - BE ADVISED - this is factoring in MY hardware, MY style of flying, MY default airport scenery, and how the two sims run on MY system. When I say crap it has nothing to do with how sweet others can get it looking (and FS9 can look spectacular!!!), it just means that flying out of Duluth in the default Cessna on fs9 looks horrid on my end even with scenery addons. I want the best experience FOR ME so naturally I run FSX. Yes it is really all about me when I fly LOL!!There I got that part over with *whew* - now on to your questions!I don't think FS9 ever did anything wrong to me - it served its purpose as the best sim of the time. I VATSIMed with it, I had great times having friends over and letting them fly it, and there are some wonderful addons for it I will miss dearly in FSX (Dreamfleet Bonanza/Baron/C310). Not to mention I generously received my first "real" gaming PC while simming with FS9 (so grateful for it ...once again you know who you are) and was able to immerse myself with addons I could never run before. I've participated in forums on all the major sites for years with FS9 and knew the CFG in and out lol. But along came FSX (true I didn't move right away) and I realized the awesomeness of it when it arrived - for the style of flying that suited me best - GA. (Don't read into this too much - fast movers are cool too)Unfortunately there happens to be a vicious cycle regarding the public FS9/FSX bashing. I get annoyed by the FS9 users who rant on about why developers won't do 9 anymore.... or rant about the hardware needed to run X well (remember how old FS9 actually is?). RE: the hardware - for under 1000 bucks you can have a REALLY nice FSX gaming experience. My rig is A LOT older than the majority of FSX users and maybe I should be playing FS9 but I make due ;) The cycle being that each type of simmer bashes "the other side" and gets annoyed by the type that doesn't agree with him/her. IE, FSX users rant on about FS9 being inferior because XYZ, while FS9 users do the same about FSX. It's human nature to try and persuade the "other" guy to your side of the discussion.Human Nature.So who wants to talk X-Plane haha?!

I visit both the FS9 and FSX forums on a daily basis and one of the impressions I seem to get, from many of the posts made in both are as follows:-It appears that many in the FS9 forum feel the need to justify their stay with FS9, be it through comparisons or negativity towards FSX.-It appears that most in the FSX forum don't even bring up FS9 at all, except when asking developers if/when their favorite FS9 product will someday be ported over to FSX. I've got both FS9 (with a ton of addons) and FSX installed in my computer and continue to fly both sims but for the last couple of months have been slowly but surely spending more time in FSX. Even though performance is miles ahead in FS9, it's the greater immersion factor that FSX provides that keeps drawing me back to it. Simply with the addition of EZdok and the EMB (bloom program) program, it's really no longer difficult choice- FSX is now pretty much it for me. And with new scenery addons such as those from Orbx, FS9, with the exception of Frame Rate, simply can't keep up to FSX in terms of that immersion factor. Also important is the LOD in the scenery graphics. They are definitely far apart in that respect.About the only area where FS9 has FSX beat (for me) is when I'm flying in or out of busy airports with high addon traffic. It's truly a thing of beauty to have high and smooth framerates at JFK, O'Hare or Heathrow as the hustle & bustle of "Ultimate Traffic" airliners are arriving and departing. But that is something that a hardware upgrade will one day take care of. Then FS9 will join FS2000 in my CD bin of no-longer-used programs.

Psolk posted in the FS9 forum too! Had a quick read and those FS9 users that responded are mostly a really excited user, pure and simple. Their fanaticism is actually quite funny and maybe a little sad. Poor guys. :(