9 minutes ago, MarcG said:

Because all the time they're getting paid who are they to argue? They've got a contract to fulfill, their hands are pretty much tied to whatever demands MS have set out.

 

5 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Asobo is a very small company which hit the gold a few years ago. Do you think that Wloch has any negociation leverage on Spencer ? None.

Besides, I have always suspected that they convinced MS head honchos to fund the project with an insanely tight business plan. Why do you think that major public works are always very late to be completed  ? Same here 
 

 

1 minute ago, psolk said:

MS wont care...  I see this a lot in my industry where you get 12-18 months into a new product release and the next release becomes a "just fix the word not allowed thing" release with no feature/functionality but simply going back to address stability and everything that was broken in the rush to get it out... Forget about Asobo/MS doing this at the consumer level their parent company does it at the Corporate level so why would they care? 

How many OS updates have MS rolled out with known bugs that require hotfixes, why would they treat MSFS any different?  It's not like MS has never chose to roll out buggy software over taking the time to polish it to perfection before release... 

OK MS Dont care, I agree.

So lets just do a "recardo" FTFU and say nothing 😄 as we are wasting our breath 🙂 or just adding a huge amount of burdon onto Asobo, poor guys....

1 hour ago, DC1973 said:

At the risk of further inflaming things, I have contact with Asobo daily. They are acutely aware of all bugs, all reports and all concerns from both users and developers. SU7 is still an amazing simulator, but it did indeed ship with countless bugs, both those you can see and those you cannot ( SDK non-functional / highly bugged being one that most will not be aware of ).

Asobo work hard to fix as much as they can, but of course they only have so many personnel and there are literally thousands ( perhaps tens of thousands ) of reports coming in from around the entire planet. To expect personal or immediate responses is a bit too much given the volume. Also, different users experience bizarrely different things - SU7 works a treat for one user, and is a disaster for another. That's why so many are arguing past each other here and on other forums.

My own personal request to Asobo, of some months ago, was to cut out the flashy add-ons and start fixing things. They have zero control over this - it's MS pushing the updates regardless of considerations for users, developers or Asobo. Argue about it all you want, but that's the way it is. I hope it changes, and soon.

Is it JN or or his supervisor?

Edited December 1, 20214 yr by Nemo

51 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Give them time, its a ten year plan 😄 Folks that are working on Reno ain't working on bugs etc etc etc What did I miss?

Hopefully the framerate drop issue will not be fixed in the 10th year...  ✈️

I hope they find some middle ground. I see that they need to release new features regularly to keep up sales but at some point it might not work anymore, eg due to loss of reputation or when bugs and lacking SDK prevent 3rd parties from releasing their stuff. The plan to focus solely on bug fixing in the next sim update and not to mess around with the code in future world updates gives me some hope.

1 hour ago, DC1973 said:

They have zero control over this - it's MS pushing the updates regardless of considerations for users, developers or Asobo. Argue about it all you want, but that's the way it is. I hope it changes, and soon.

Anybody who knows even a tiny bit abou how AAA games are developed knows this. Unfortunately, most avsimmers do not.

7 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Anybody who knows even a tiny bit abou how AAA games are developed knows this. Unfortunately, most avsimmers do not.

That's a bit of a slur on 'most avsimmers'.  I think most of us do understand this actually, or at least heavily suspected that MS are calling the shots.

The 'complainers' just want a better quality product that they paid for (yes - entitled to ask for it ), with less regressions during updates.  

A lot of the discontent is not particularly aimed at MS or Asobo, but the 'Team' (I use that term loosely). 
However, only Asobo can fix the code, not MS, unless the franchise is removed, which would possibly be counter productive at this stage.

How much longer does this debate have to go on, the discontented simmers are not to blame in this, but some people still post disparaging remarks about the part of the community that dares to want to discuss issues - crazy.  

Agreed, everyone wants a better product, and everyone who wants to complain will, and should. And they should issue bug reports in a detailed and meaningful way through the correct channel.

But I think the criticism has been levelled more at Asobo, and it's been quite unjust, with people calling them incompetent, throwing them under the bus, suggesting they are breaking things on purpose, begging MS to fire them from the project and bring in a new developer. And that's why some of us try to point out that it's actually MS who are directing this project, deciding what, when, how, and in what state things are released.

I don't know anyone from Asobo, and I wouldn't like to say they are perfect. Nobody is. No development team is. You've usually got someone messing something up in error (only in error, not purposely). But I can't help feeling for them, being related to a developer and knowing what they deal with.

Asobo have delivered a technical marvel. Overall, there's a lot of good, and, for me, much to marvel at. Definitely needs work. But Asobo know that, and believe me they will want it to be the best it can be. They want to fix the code (and, yes, they will break it in the process, especially when new features are implemented again). But they need MS to work with them and stop pushing releases. Let them take extra time. Allow for public beta testing and the time to analyse the output from that.

Yes, I do think Asobo should be praised, not torn apart (but, yes, they can be criticised if it's fair to), for what they've accomplished under the circumstances, such as the legacy code they were lumbered with that doesn't fit modern hardware, and the unprecedented update and release schedules.

I posted this recently, but I do like this interview with Asobo's Technical Director. You can almost feel the pain (nervous laughter) as he talks about dealing with that legacy code, etc.:

 

Edited December 1, 20214 yr by March Hare

1 hour ago, Nemo said:

Is it JN or or his supervisor?

I have my ideas but just intuitions. But just think of what could be the relative power weight of a Spencer and a Neumann at Redmond, that  we have seen a poor coordination between MS entities (ie no global management of the product) and that Microsoft is also a large bureaucracy (blame avoidance etc.)... 

There is a plan, a business plan that was green lighted by Corporate and which has been quite successful, profit-wise. Users contentment is not but very marginally part of it, they only freak out when there is a wave of discontent which could be bad for the sales to new customers cf. the hurried HF after SU5 when they released the Xbox version.   

No reason so far to diverge from the plan but  things may change in the next months because the product will become mature (not technically but market wise).  

49 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

That's a bit of a slur on 'most avsimmers'.  I think most of us do understand this actually, or at least heavily suspected that MS are calling the shots.

The 'complainers' just want a better quality product that they paid for (yes - entitled to ask for it ), with less regressions during updates.  

A lot of the discontent is not particularly aimed at MS or Asobo, but the 'Team' (I use that term loosely). 
However, only Asobo can fix the code, not MS, unless the franchise is removed, which would possibly be counter productive at this stage.

How much longer does this debate have to go on, the discontented simmers are not to blame in this, but some people still post disparaging remarks about the part of the community that dares to want to discuss issues - crazy.  

Again: wrong. I see mostly comments directed at Asobo. What "Team" are you talking about?

It's not about "fixing code", it's about who gets to decide when an update gets pushed out the door. That decision is surely not, or at least to a significant degree, in Asobo's hands.

56 minutes ago, bobcat999 said:

That's a bit of a slur on 'most avsimmers'.  I

just a petty provocation, what else is new 😉 ?

5 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Again: wrong

How is he wrong for expressing an opinion? He’s neither right nor wrong, just like you. 

32 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Again: wrong. I see mostly comments directed at Asobo. What "Team" are you talking about?

The 'Team' that likes to present itself in the most comprehensive information and feedback sessions they ever do - the Twitch Sessions - with all that razzmatazz about what they are going to do, the new product launches, and feedback on the bugs they have found, and how and when they intend to fix them.  Even we, the users, are referred to as part of the 'Team' sometimes, as we build this brilliant simulator together by giving our 'valuable' feedback to them - all phrases commonly used.

Jorg at least refers to the 'Team' quite a lot, although a look in the eyes of some of the Asobo guys at times is quite revealing.  It kind of confirms what we are talking about, what we suspect about the 'politics' of it all, and what DC has implied this morning as a developer.

Of course, I could be "again: wrong".  
 

Edited December 1, 20214 yr by bobcat999

"Depressa e bem, não faz ninguém"...

 

as we say in good Portuguese... Unfortunately sales numbers / budget not always comply with careful, structured development...

In the end it can converge to something that finally has the colours of what many still look forward for MFS to become...

@flightyjoe  I understood what you meant Joe.  Sometimes people just try to chew you up on a side argument.  Pointless.

 

45 minutes ago, flightyjoe said:

I was making a point that was, we ARE entitled to a functioning product that we have paid for, that was advertised..... We all are

Nope, you're 'entitled' to one thing and one thing only:  to stop using MSFS or continue using MSFS, that's really the only thing you're 'entitled' to.  You were entitled also for a refund within so many days of your initial purchase and at that point there were far more things deficient in this virtual masterpiece of performance that you have today than you did 16 months ago.  You were told on no uncertain terms development was on a 10 year time frame and hints came regularly and still do of World Updates and Sim Updates and thus far MS/A has delivered an incredible amount of improvement and content all for a grand total of zero additional money.  You're certainly entitled to report your 'feelings' here or on the other forums, but you're absolutely not entitled to anything more than this from MS/Asobo.  And to respond to the first portion of your comment you DO HAVE a functional product, absolutely positively.  You were never ever promised all attributes would improve or even stay the same with every update.  Here's what remains functional:

1. Wickedly excellent performance on a wide range of platforms and hardware capability.  This is compared to the competition, of course.  Never in MY wildest dreams would I expect to see what I see now in all flights from a foot in front of me to the distant horizon and all in between.  Astounding, really, still, after 16 months.
2. Almost all features implemented in prior SU's remain fully functional today.  For TrackIR/VR users this isn't applying well apprarently, and thankfully these users are in a big minority.  My sense is these same folks, despite their disappointment and needing to wait for a resolution might consider using a display to tie them over. 
3. 100% of 'weather' still functions during this transition as MS/A experiments with integrating METAR.  Many simmers wanted this, it's actually working at some level albeit not perfectly, and the fact many have already excellent experiences with it even in its relative infancy.  
4. The UI remains 100% functional as does the World Map planner.
5. ATC is mostly as functional as it ever was.
6. Realtime Online Traffic remains as functional as it ever was.

I also am somewhat disappointed in a few things currently but quite frankly even using the 787-10 HD mod I'm still doing all flights, using Bijan's seasons, and Aerosoft's Simple Traffic and having the same excellent flight experiences I've ever had.  I look forward to continued development and I see no reason to believe MS/A will stop development today and leave pieces undone going forward.