MSFS 2024 …. Betrayal ?

[Franz007]

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

So what evidence do you have here that devs (assume you mean MS/Asobo) are "taking more care" of those who "just wants to have fun"??

You cannot measure that. It's an objective feeling. You will simply see/hear more such users complaining.

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

And not sure what you know about how software development works and how large software orgs are run, but do you really think that a set of devs working on graphics related work for example can easily just switch over to work on avionics?

Thank, I've worked in an Analytics/IT section. It's not really how it works when you have so many employees. You will have a few teams, each with its own "speciality". And you have people who can move from team to team. If a special task has higher priority and you don't have enough capacitry for that given task, you will hire external specialist for 6 or 12 months or whatever. All IT-people are working agile nowadays. Agile means the ability to react fast and in small steps, rather than making huge plans for the next 2 years and being stucked with a big team that doesn't have anything to do. At the end it's a strategic decision from the company. Asobo can simply plane to have bigger teams for task A than for task B. A company should have the ability to react fast and is not stucked during years with a fixed plan/organization.

[Franz007]

4 hours ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

My main wish for FS2024 would be a wave of euphoria from real world pilots saying "Wow! I must admit, this really does feel even much closer to the real thing than I've experienced in any previous sim."

That would be my wish too.

[The Flight Level]

17 minutes ago, ShawnG said:

Jorg, as extension of Asobo came out of the blue, and resurrected the microsoft flight simulator after nearly 15 years of no product released,  not only that, it is full of a ton of features that quite frankly were deemed impossible by the entire flight sim community prior.  even this topic: we are talking about using a static global photograph and AI to create accurate seasons out of summer photographic elements.  not some discrete land class tiles, that were probably tough enough to do by Aces, Orbx, Flight1 and who ever else made them in the past.  an entire global photoreal background.  and of course y'all chuckleheads will just rip them to shreds when it's done, because "ummm, actually, we don't get leaves falling for another two weeks at this location,  FAKE!!!!"  This sim has the absolute best default aircraft ever released for a sim ("but, hurr, durr, they aren't 'study level')  an ambitious weather system better than anything ever bundled with a sim before,  and these guys haven't just released a product, fixed a few bugs and then moved on, like evey other edition before it.  there has been serious and substantial fixes, improvements, and new content and features every frigging month, in the nearly 3 years its been released.  It isn't perfect, nothing else is or ever will be, but really?!!!

and then you want to paint a picture that this is some sort of unreliable politician character.  I'll take Jorg and asobo over any flight sim developer ever.   

ever.   

get out of here with this nonsense.

Wow, this topic still lives on!

@ShawnG You made some very interesting points that many forget or have put aside. You put the whole topic into perspective. Well done!

[Franz007]

59 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

I'd say MS/Asobo investing over 500 developers on MSFS 2024 is them being very satisfied with how MSFS sales are currently going.

I don't think you can deduce that. It only means that they want to invest massively in the future of that plateform.

[lwt1971]

1 minute ago, Franz007 said:

I don't think you can deduce that. It only means that they want to invest massively in the future of that plateform.

Well there's also the fact that they've said multiple times how they are satisfied with MSFS sales and numbers, including at this recent Expo presentation re: the 2020 usage numbers.

One also cannot deduce that just because they are doing 2024 that therefore means they are not satisfied with the 2020 sales ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

[Krakin]

5 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

I don't think you can deduce that. It only means that they want to invest massively in the future of that plateform.

You just like being contrarian for no good reason, don't you?

[lwt1971]

23 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

You cannot measure that. It's an objective feeling. You will simply see/hear more such users complaining.

Ok so when you said "... when the devs take more care of those who "just wants to have fun" rather than those wanting more aviation-related stuff ..." you were just postulating then.
 

23 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

Thank, I've worked in an Analytics/IT section. It's not really how it works when you have so many employees. You will have a few teams, each with its own "speciality". And you have people who can move from team to team. If a special task has higher priority and you don't have enough capacitry for that given task, you will hire external specialist for 6 or 12 months or whatever. All IT-people are working agile nowadays. Agile means the ability to react fast and in small steps, rather than making huge plans for the next 2 years and being stucked with a big team that doesn't have anything to do. At the end it's a strategic decision from the company. Asobo can simply plane to have bigger teams for task A than for task B. A company should have the ability to react fast and is not stucked during years with a fixed plan/organization.

Yes I know how agile works, and yes indeed that's what I'm saying about teams/devs with their own "specialty" (in general software development there might be devs that have a diverse enough skillset i.e. "full-stack" to be placed into any work item of priority.. but in entertainment software development rare is the case when devs are diversely skilled enough to be able to work on graphics/3d-modelling/etc and avionics and flight dynamics etc etc). So explain to me again your "Because there are less resources available for what  group 2 wants" comment: if end-user group 2 wants focus on feature/issue x, and end-user group 1 wants graphics which a part of the dev team is working on, how exactly is user group 2 losing out due to graphics being worked on?

In any case, no one is in a position to posit on how MS/Asobo have their hundreds of developers for 2020/2024 structured, and if they are being used efficiently or not, if they have agile vs fixed plans, etc etc... going by their delivery of numerous SUs/AAUs/WUs/CUs etc and now this extensive investment into 2024 I'd say they're not doing too bad (oh, and also given MS/Asobo's experience in this software development thing 🙂)
 

Edited June 25, 2023 by lwt1971

[Franz007]

2 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Well there's also the fact that they've said multiple times how they are satisfied with MSFS sales and numbers, including at this recent Expo presentation re: the 2020 usage numbers.

One also cannot deduce that just because they are doing 2024 that therefore means they are not satisfied with the 2020 sales ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Yes that's correct. We cannot deduce it one or the other way. And what they are telling in an official way has to be taken with a grain of salt as long as we don't have datas about invest vs gains. I don't particularly have a specific viewpoint on that. What seems to be sure is that they have sold a huge amounts of copies (like never) and will massivley invest and support that plateform for the next years. But as long as we don't know their investments, we cannot deduce anything about how satisfied they really are. I think it would be a bad move to officially state that they are very unhappy with their sales (not saying they are)

[Tom_L]

4 hours ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

My main wish for FS2024 would be a wave of euphoria from real world pilots saying "Wow! I must admit, this really does feel even much closer to the real thing than I've experienced in any previous sim."

Amen to that! As a pilot I for instance care for the differences in cloudscapes associated with coldfronts vs. warmfronts. I am no meteorologist, but I know what to expect when there's a warmfront approaching my destination airport. To date, MSFS fails to simulate even those well predictable (by any forecast model) aspects. And for their new game they advertise tornadoes, hard to predict even by specialized forecasters?

I doubt I will feel that wave!

[Franz007]

2 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

So explain to me again your "Because there are less resources available for what  group 2 wants" comment: if end-user group 2 wants focus on feature/issue x, and end-user group 1 wants graphics which a part of the dev team is working on, how exactly is user group 2 losing out due to graphics being worked on?

Like i said. That would be indeed a problem if the team was completey static. But that's not the case. And user group 2 is loosing in the sense that group1-dev-team generates more costs for graphic and group2-dev-team having less ressources and less possibilities to hire specialists to help. Although I know that in reality it isn't as simple as that because you also have to find the right persons first and there may be some domains with lack of specialists etc. But within years it really should be possible to conter-balance/move they efforts from group1-devs to user2-devs. It's a strategic decision. And in the last 3 years this decision was obviously based on the user-groups based on their income. And there is nothing wrong about that. But that's why users from group 2 are complaining (they are smaller).

[urthgental]

What a ridiculous discussion. I hope the people from MS & Asobo do not accidentally read all this word not allowed here.

[Waldo Pepper]

5 hours ago, F737MAX said:

Yep. I think it has to do with a certain type of thinking that 'gaming' is only what children do.

If that's the case, it seems kids are on a buying extravaganza: https://www.statista.com/statistics/292056/video-game-market-value-worldwide/

🙃

No offense intended to anyone,   but I've always wondered how many tube drivers (and simmers in general) are somewhere on the OCD spectrum.  😂   Please don't misconstrue that as a negative statement about anyone,  or any group,   it's just that it takes something different to make someone want to study a thousand page manual for an aircraft they'll never fly IRL.    Not saying that all of them have any form of disorder,  nor a majority,   but I'd bet money that the level of intricacy appeals to people on the spectrum.   They tend to like rigid,  structured environments.

I think it would explain many of the responses we see in the sim community.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Waldo Pepper

[F737MAX]

14 minutes ago, Waldo Pepper said:

 it's just that it takes something different to make someone want to study a thousand page manual for an aircraft they'll never fly IRL.

 

Or obsess with tweaking (software and/or hardware) settings...

I've always suspected it's rather high and can partly be explained by one of the definitions of Autism Spectrum Disorder, namely:

Quote

Many autistic people have intense and highly focused interests, often from a fairly young age. These can change over time or be lifelong. Autistic people can become experts in their special interests and often like to share their knowledge.

Source: https://autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism

And before anyone claims I'm being judgemental, I recognise these traits in myself and have close relatives on the spectrum.

[Franz007]

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

You just like being contrarian for no good reason, don't you?

No, i simply write  my position when i disagree with a post like many are doing in a discussion-forum. And I explain why. Others like to complain for no good reason, don’t they?

[flying_carpet]

WOW !! Is this the rabid dogs forum? 😆