MSFS 2024 …. Betrayal ?

[F737MAX]

5 hours ago, Abriael said:

As a matter of fact, I've often seen more maturity in these communities - at the very least in the ability to recognize that they're simply enjoying an entertainment-related hobby - then in the flight simulation community, which has massive issues with coming to terms with the fact that having fun isn't a sin. 

Yep. I think it has to do with a certain type of thinking that 'gaming' is only what children do.

If that's the case, it seems kids are on a buying extravaganza: https://www.statista.com/statistics/292056/video-game-market-value-worldwide/

🙃

[KL Oo]

5 minutes ago, Franz007 said:

I hope you see the problem now. Thats the point that frustrates group 2. Waiting for that and at the same time many ressources being spent for stuff not important to them.

But what about all those people in Group 1 who don't care about the stuff being made for Group 2.... Geez its so confusing. 

[urthgental]

I think MS is balancing this nicely in FS2024.

Flying in a Sim is completly different from any other type of games.

I am RW pilot and I fly in Sims to recreate this experience virtually. But I need some guidance where and how to fly apart from routes I know at home.

These activites, if not implemented as boring as Missions or BushTrips, can help to experience new aspects of aviation. So I am all for it, in case they implement good procedural scenarios, we will see.

[Antipodeslonghaul]

I'd say PC flight sims for pilots practicing IFR techniques are roughly the equivalent of wooden dummies for martial artists like Ip Man.

I don't think so much has changed since the 1980s, no need to even bother with clouds, just set your sim visibility down to like 1/4 mile, try out different wind settings, try out different scenarios partial panel etc. I think Flight Simulator 2.0 is more or less as good as FS 2024 will be in this respect, but we'll see when it comes out.

I've been enjoying FS 2020 more and more recently. Having fun, and it really looks great. And I'm looking forward to seeing more videos of FS 2024 as they come out, and then at some point decide when it becomes worth buying.

My hunch is most people on here can drive a car. If I had a driving sim modeling some standard car like a Ford Focus, I'd mainly be interested in how closely my movements, turning the wheel, stepping on the gas, applying brake pressure etc. would translate compared to the equivalent movements in real life. Then conditions like steep hills or slippery icy surfaces would be of interest, graphics would have a bit lower priority. I'd never expect the driving sim to 100% resemble real life, but of course I'd want to get as close as possible.

My main wish for FS2024 would be a wave of euphoria from real world pilots saying "Wow! I must admit, this really does feel even much closer to the real thing than I've experienced in any previous sim."

[andy1252]

10 hours ago, Coolieboy said:

It is a stimulator which is

I guess that was a typo but it seems kind of appropriate. It's stimulating to use, and it certainly stimulates a certain amount of debate.

[Franz007]

2 hours ago, KL Oo said:

But what about all those people in Group 1 who don't care about the stuff being made for Group 2.... Geez its so confusing. 

Fair enough, good point.

[lwt1971]

3 hours ago, Franz007 said:

There is nothing wrong with that. I think it starts to be an issue, when the devs take more care of those who "just wants to have fun" rather than those wanting more aviation-related stuff. Because there are less ressources available for what  group 2 wants. I really don't think someone would care the way other users are using it otherwise. But when stuff are missing and there are more efforts made to satisfy group 1, it can be frustrating for group 2.

So what evidence do you have here that devs (assume you mean MS/Asobo) are "taking more care" of those who "just wants to have fun"?? And not sure what you know about how software development works and how large software orgs are run, but do you really think that a set of devs working on graphics related work for example can easily just switch over to work on avionics? And secondly (and this is an often misunderstood concept), throwing more devs to work on a problem or feature doesn't necessarily mean it gets done faster/better, in fact it can hamper said development.

Obviously MS/Asobo have aims to cater to various aspects of flight-simming/aviation and audiences with MSFS, from Serious Simmers ™️ to casuals and various other groups. So ya sure one group can always start feeling entitled and ask MS/Asobo to dedicate all their focus on their needs, but that just ain't gonna happen. That said, when trying to cater to a vast variety of needs, the one thing a company definitely needs to do is have to enough resources... I'd say having 150+ for MSFS 2020 and now increasing to 500+ for MSFS 2024 is a good start and investment on their part.
 

[Ianrivaldosmith]

8 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Do you complain every time a new smart phone comes out, too?

Yes because they offer minimal improvements for an extra £800+. Complete waste of money. And because the batteries are locked in, no way to keep the old one (which the EU law is about to change, good!). Same with a lot of things in society these days, including computer games. I have exceptions; Cities skyline had a great 7+ year run as did Civilisation 6. Now thats what I call value for money. If my smart phone lasted 8 years like my car, I would be super happy. But it doesn't, the battery health deteriorates and forces me to get a new one. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Ianrivaldosmith

[Ianrivaldosmith]

9 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Screaming without a clue

Who's screaming? I was merely pointing out an observation. Neither said I was angry nor happy. And definitely was not screaming. 

[Ianrivaldosmith]

12 hours ago, Tuskin38 said:

Jorg said they'll try and backport Seasons to 2020.

'try' being the operative word. Tell you what, if they do back port seasons to 2020, I'll give you $10, no strings attached. If you don't want it, I'll donate it to avsim. 

Thats how much confidence I have in Jorg's word. He's like a politician in the UK, full of grand ideas, and hot air. Sure some of it comes to fruition, but a lot doesn't and it's a painful road! 

[Ianrivaldosmith]

On 6/14/2023 at 7:11 AM, robert young said:

I don't particularly mind if MS announced "Pepper Pig Goes Flying 2024" or "Pokemon Takes To the Skies 2024" provided they hang around long enough to fix all the glaring flaws in the current sim, but I'm not holding my breath. They must know their demographic and market and of course that is uppermost in their minds. However, we have a very good example of Dovetail, whose attempt at joining the market with Flight Sim World fell flat on its face because DT completely under-estimated the sophistication of their potential customers who wanted a lot more than a slightly prettier version of FSX.

I can only assume MS are not satisfied with sales projections of MSFS 2020 and want to attract customers other than those interested in details like decent ATC, AI and the cleaning up of existing weaknesses in the current sim, otherwise why would they divert their focus and manpower onto what appears to be a role playing title? Again that doesn't bother me provided they don't abandon a really promising existing sim which just needs more polish to make it outstanding rather than an "almost there" product. While they have given assurances that current and third party products will still work, that doesn't mean they are still committed to sorting out the weather, Ai behaviour and frankly lamentable ATC. But there is still cause for optimism if MS expanded its sdk and coding access so third parties can finish the job for them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

[lwt1971]

11 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Who's screaming? I was merely pointing out an observation. Neither said I was angry nor happy. And definitely was not screaming. 

My original quote about aging like milk (to which you then responded comparing that to MS/Asobo roadmap not being all delivered in v2020) were about all the hot screaming takes that v2024 is going to be all about arcadey missions only (not you specifically, but many others around here).

In any case, nowhere did MS/Asobo say all of their roadmap will keep coming to a single base sim version for free perpetually... some of the bigger ticket roadmap items now only debuting in v2024 (meaning we pay $60-$120 every 4-ish years to get those items along with a revamped core sim) is not even remotely close to being a bad thing.
 

Edited June 25, 2023 by lwt1971

[lwt1971]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:11 AM, robert young said:

I can only assume MS are not satisfied with sales projections of MSFS 2020 and want to attract customers other than those interested in details like decent ATC, AI and the cleaning up of existing weaknesses in the current sim, otherwise why would they divert their focus and manpower onto what appears to be a role playing title? Again that doesn't bother me provided they don't abandon a really promising existing sim which just needs more polish to make it outstanding rather than an "almost there" product. While they have given assurances that current and third party products will still work, that doesn't mean they are still committed to sorting out the weather, Ai behaviour and frankly lamentable ATC. But there is still cause for optimism if MS expanded its sdk and coding access so third parties can finish the job for them.

Your quote was brought up date again just above, so given that we have more details from FS Expo now, I'd say MS/Asobo investing over 500 developers on MSFS 2024 is them being very satisfied with how MSFS sales are currently going. And it's clearly not about "diverting their focus and manpower onto what appears to be a role playing title". Weather is definitely getting enhancements and rework, and they mentioned AI... No particular word on ATC from the expo, but will need to wait and see. Of the three main focus areas for rework/enhancements in v2024, this one is the most important I'd say: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/635259-new-physics-engine-and-improved-systemsavionic-in-msfs-2024/
 

Edited June 25, 2023 by lwt1971

[Bobsk8]

3 hours ago, Antipodeslonghaul said:

I'd say PC flight sims for pilots practicing IFR techniques are roughly the equivalent of wooden dummies for martial artists like Ip Man.

I don't think so much has changed since the 1980s, no need to even bother with clouds, just set your sim visibility down to like 1/4 mile, try out different wind settings, try out different scenarios partial panel etc. I think Flight Simulator 2.0 is more or less as good as FS 2024 will be in this respect, but we'll see when it comes out.

I've been enjoying FS 2020 more and more recently. Having fun, and it really looks great. And I'm looking forward to seeing more videos of FS 2024 as they come out, and then at some point decide when it becomes worth buying.

My hunch is most people on here can drive a car. If I had a driving sim modeling some standard car like a Ford Focus, I'd mainly be interested in how closely my movements, turning the wheel, stepping on the gas, applying brake pressure etc. would translate compared to the equivalent movements in real life. Then conditions like steep hills or slippery icy surfaces would be of interest, graphics would have a bit lower priority. I'd never expect the driving sim to 100% resemble real life, but of course I'd want to get as close as possible.

My main wish for FS2024 would be a wave of euphoria from real world pilots saying "Wow! I must admit, this really does feel even much closer to the real thing than I've experienced in any previous sim."

You can  have that today for about $25,000,000 buying your sim from a company like CAE. That is what the airlines do all their training on. 

[ShawnG]

39 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

'try' being the operative word. Tell you what, if they do back port seasons to 2020, I'll give you $10, no strings attached. If you don't want it, I'll donate it to avsim. 

Thats how much confidence I have in Jorg's word. He's like a politician in the UK, full of grand ideas, and hot air. Sure some of it comes to fruition, but a lot doesn't and it's a painful road! 

Jorg, as extension of Asobo came out of the blue, and resurrected the microsoft flight simulator after nearly 15 years of no product released,  not only that, it is full of a ton of features that quite frankly were deemed impossible by the entire flight sim community prior.  even this topic: we are talking about using a static global photograph and AI to create accurate seasons out of summer photographic elements.  not some discrete land class tiles, that were probably tough enough to do by Aces, Orbx, Flight1 and who ever else made them in the past.  an entire global photoreal background.  and of course y'all chuckleheads will just rip them to shreds when it's done, because "ummm, actually, we don't get leaves falling for another two weeks at this location,  FAKE!!!!"  This sim has the absolute best default aircraft ever released for a sim ("but, hurr, durr, they aren't 'study level')  an ambitious weather system better than anything ever bundled with a sim before,  and these guys haven't just released a product, fixed a few bugs and then moved on, like evey other edition before it.  there has been serious and substantial fixes, improvements, and new content and features every frigging month, in the nearly 3 years its been released.  It isn't perfect, nothing else is or ever will be, but really?!!!

and then you want to paint a picture that this is some sort of unreliable politician character.  I'll take Jorg and asobo over any flight sim developer ever.   

ever.   

get out of here with this nonsense.