23 minutes ago, Lotharen said:

I get why Asobo/Microsoft are doing this however I think it could have been handled a bit differently. Granted, no matter what way they choose to do it some will be unhappy. Had they done like they do in MMO's and made MSFS 2024 an expansion that might have been viewed a bit better. 

Meh, I think they did just fine. They have to strike a balance between doing what the hardcore simmers want and what is best for all potential customers. It isn't their fault flight simmers just happen to be some of the biggest drama queens in the videogame industry.

On 6/12/2023 at 12:23 PM, Bert Pieke said:

This is actually a separate concern from those mentioned before... most dealt with having to upgrade and what that might mean.  This one is dealing with "sim vs game".. and deep inside me, I do share the concern.

Vehicles driving on the taxi ways, trees blocking the approach path, misplaced PAPI lights, morphing terrain tiles etc  do indeed interfere with the authentic cockpit experience.. and seeing MS/Asobo spending their energy on adding Mission content, instead of cleaning up the basics rubs me the wrong way also.. 😟

Yes.

Exactly.

Well said.

18 minutes ago, vonmar said:

.. and seeing MS/Asobo spending their energy on adding Mission content, instead of cleaning up the basics rubs me the wrong way also..  

Yes.
Exactly.
Well said.

Umm except now we know since yesterday's FSExpo presentation, without any doubt, that MS/Asobo are not "spending their energy" on adding mission content.

So ya, all the histrionics and dramatic takes/assumptions/claims really really did age like milk lol.

How about a sim that can cater to multiple needs, to those who feel they are "simmers", to those who feel they are "gamers", and to  all those inbetween and outside... very doable when someone like MS/Asobo can gather over 500 on their team to dedicate to the development of the 2024 release.
 

Edited June 24, 20232 yr by lwt1971

When you think about it, everything in business is eventually a betrayal, just enough to not totally disillusion everyone.

I think it's fine, but it's wait and see, as always...

My main issue with this being a SIM vs. GAME would be the landings and flaps on certain planes, but I'm not sure how much of that is Asobo's difficult to use API or how much of it is 3PD's fault. Second to that is the ground physics after landing, feels too much like glass. 

The flaps issue is annoying though, on some planes when you engage flaps the plane almost immediately slows down to near stall speed. So much so that it is safer taking off with NO flaps or at least immediately disabling the flaps as soon as you hit the air. I know flaps are supposed to slow down planes, but it also provides more lift, and you often SINK in planes too much in MSFS or the nose just goes straight up and your fighting the nose the entire way back down to a level angle.

Of course graphics improvements would be right up there as well, for weather I am less interested because I'm not a real pilot, but I hope they do improve the weather for others sakes (or if I ever go get my pilot's license - doubtful). I don't bother with real flying because I have back issues sitting still for long periods of time, and it's so expensive, for me not much point.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 20232 yr by Alpine Scenery

8 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

really really did age like milk lol.

As did some of Asobos roadmap plans for MSFS 2020 (we can call it that now right?), seasons being one of them. 

11 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Well, what you appear not to see (though I can't understand how this is possible) is that this program (and every other desktop flight simulator in existence) IS a game; as in, software used for entertainment purposes.  

Can it be used in some cases to help people learn about the procedures involved in flying?  Yes.  Is this the same as actually training to fly an airplane?  Of course not; the two things aren't even related.

I've used MSFS and its predecessors to operate aircraft I fly or have previously flown in real life.  I like hand flying AIII approaches in the PMDG 737 as one easy example.  Why?  Because it's fun.  Could doing this help someone who didn't fly 737s learn about how it is done?  Sure.  Does this mean they'd in any way be prepared to do it themselves?  Oh my no.  Do I delude myself into thinking I'm practicing for my next real world approach, or my next CQ event?  Of course not.  Because this is a sub $100 game running on a home computer, not a multi million dollar training device.

Does flying an ILS on Vatsim in a 172 help someone learn about how that works in real life?  Of course.  Does it really help with maintaining any instrument currency?  I would say no more so than chair flying; it's just more FUN than that.

We use this software because it's FUN.  And that's ok.  That's good in fact!  Fun is good!  For some, fun is using the software to learn ABOUT real world operations (which is different than actually LEARNING them).  For others, fun may be the cliched "inverted under the bridge" stuff.  My point is that there's not really a difference... Because we're all having FUN.  No one is actually conducting training here.

It's somewhat irrational to get angry at someone for using the software to have fun in a different way than you do.

 

I rest my case. Loool omg

41 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

As did some of Asobos roadmap plans for MSFS 2020 (we can call it that now right?), seasons being one of them. 

Jorg said they'll try and backport Seasons to 2020.

Darn you Mazda for bringing out a new model every four years.  Now what am I gonna do......keep my 2019 Mazda 3 or buy the 2024.......and how dare they all of a sudden advertise it without consulting with me first.....cheeky I reckon.

Can't believe MSFS/Asobo want to progress and utilise the latest advancements in technology for us simmers.  How dare they....... I'm gonna have to write to Mazda too.

Jase

Edited June 25, 20232 yr by JaseMelbo

9 hours ago, g-liner said:

Why are people upset by describing it as a game. Isn’t fs2020 supposed to be fun? That’s why I play it anyway.

If I’m doing flight training for my job I’m in a real aircraft or in a real sim not fs2020. Sure FS2020 is great and I want more realism in every aspect  but it’s obviously not good enough to use for actual training for my job as an airline pilot. 

I think the issue is that some simmers like you think it’s incredibly realistic and are massively invested in your hobby and imagine because you’re flying a PMDG 73 or whatever you’re basically doing what real pilots do. You’re not, you’re playing a game and that’s why you get upset when you have to face the reality of the situation. 

I can use fs2020 for some aspects of my job like scan flows and practicing certain approaches or procedures etc but only because I fully understand the limitations of the sim (because I actually fly the same aircraft and fly the approaches I’m practicing IRL) and know where it’s realistic and where it’s not. 
 

FS2020 has obviously succeeded as it’s become more accessible to a wider range of players. Devs know they’ll get far more sales from these new simmers and reach if marketplace etc than just relying on the older classic flightsim demographic. 
 

What MS/asobo have done by opening the sim up to a wider group through game pass and making the game fantastic on console has been a huge success. 
 

instead of trying to gatekeep your hobby (it’s not just your hobby) , why not enjoy the huge amounts of new content and opportunities that this success has created for us ALL to enjoy. 
 

Playing flightsim is partly how I got into my flying career as a young boy, I’m really pleased to see the recent shake up in the community and all the new players enjoying it and hopefully getting into aviation as a career also. 

 

Mate...not every is earning £3500 or more a month to be able to afford to rent GA aircraft to do what you just said.

 

Also, there are emergency procedures one just would never wish to experience irl let alone to pay for time in a full fat, multiple million pound/dollar simulator. 

 

Common sense says, in X-Plane and MSFS and DCS world (yes, active military pilots...sht, entire militaries use DCS World for training sometimes, did you know that),  one is offered to simulate real life without the risk of losing life nor huge amounts of money.

 

It is a stimulator which is gamer friendly. I said this from the start but for some weird reason, you guys wish to fight me on the terminology and purpose of what has always been intended to be a "DESKTOP SIMULATOR". 

 

DCS is a DESKTOP SIMULATOR.

X-Plane is a DESKTOP SIMULATOR.

 

Nothing less, nothing more. 

 

MSFS is far more casual gamer friendly than it's predecessors. The main reason is to help fund for the expenses and investment into it's development. I am so happy with that as long as it does not interfere with the core elements of the sim. Thankfully, unlike false titles such as "Gran Turismo-The Real Driving Simulator", MSFS is a real simulator...simulating real weather, real airports, real scenery and real aircraft and real charts, sids stars etc etc etc. 

 

Ace Combat is a game. This, while under the "Game" category, is NOT a game. It CAN be a game for casual players who will be content playing unrealistic addons such as the up and coming Dune stuff and all these quirky addon aircraft and perhaps these gamers don't care for real airport scenery and aircraft. Good for you guys...however like I said, please understand...without the core fan base for FSX/P3D and now MSFS, this title would not have worked. If MSFS was made to be arcade in nature, it would have failed.

 

Just to make my point clear...

 

-MSFS IS....a TRUE simulator. It falls under the "Gaming" title yes...but...it...is...a...simulator. because people simulate rl. That is the core draw to this product. That is what the core consumer uses it for. 

 

And this rubbish about "fun"...what on earth...do you think I'm feeling when I successfully butter my PMDG 737 or Fenix A320 or my soon to fly FBW A380 or Aerosoft A333 RR? THAT is fun to me. I challenge myself by flying to different regions, different real world weather and nail the execution of professional, safe, in-depth flights. That's my fun.

 

When I want braindead fun, I play Fifa or WOWS legends and even then I excel due to playing with strategies to aid in my victory. 

 

I've unfortunately had to face this same sort of pushback from a minority of members who plague the Assetto Corsa community. AC is not a racing "game" which is a true racing simulator, intended to be a racing simulators. So in other words, while one can buy it in a game shop, it has RL physics, RL tracks and RL sounds to immerse it's core community as much as possible. 

 

And you can tell it is a sim because those who come directly from arcade titles such as Need For Speed or Midnight Club and those coming from simcade titles such as Forza Motorsports or Gran Turismo, fail when trying to brake while cornering and therefore get so frustrated that they start ramming serious SIMMERS off track instead of trying to wrap their heads around RL accurate physics. 

 

Who will waste time to replicate real life in a product if said product is not intended to be a simulator? Where did common sense go and why is it no longer common? So many questions. Man this is frustrating. How I wish you could understand but I cannot be asked anymore. You should know better. You really should. Be offended or improve you comprehension of basic, simple logic.

18 minutes ago, Coolieboy said:

I rest my case. Loool omg

Just so you are aware, you are postulating some weird sort of superiority here, but he is an actual commercial 737 pilot, and you are a simmer, posing.

The case was already resting.

31 minutes ago, Coolieboy said:

I rest my case. Loool omg

Which case are you resting?  The only one that would make sense is the one where you understand that this software is a video game, not a training tool.  But that's not what you've been saying.

5 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Which case are you resting?  The only one that would make sense is the one where you understand that this software is a video game, not a training tool.  But that's not what you've been saying.

It might be good to recognize that Jorg in his presentation said that there are 12 Million MSFS users, of which 3 Million are dedicated simmers, 3 Million dedicated gamers, and the rest casual users..

Assuming he was more or less correct in his numbers, it would make sense to offer each of these groups a reason to upgrade to FS2024.. 😉

He said that one of the most asked requests was for "more things to do"..  That would not have come from me, but explains his thinking..

Edited June 25, 20232 yr by Bert Pieke

10 hours ago, g-liner said:

Why are people upset by describing it as a game. Isn’t fs2020 supposed to be fun? That’s why I play it anyway.

If I’m doing flight training for my job I’m in a real aircraft or in a real sim not fs2020. Sure FS2020 is great and I want more realism in every aspect  but it’s obviously not good enough to use for actual training for my job as an airline pilot. 

I think the issue is that some simmers like you think it’s incredibly realistic and are massively invested in your hobby and imagine because you’re flying a PMDG 73 or whatever you’re basically doing what real pilots do. You’re not, you’re playing a game and that’s why you get upset when you have to face the reality of the situation. 

I can use fs2020 for some aspects of my job like scan flows and practicing certain approaches or procedures etc but only because I fully understand the limitations of the sim (because I actually fly the same aircraft and fly the approaches I’m practicing IRL) and know where it’s realistic and where it’s not. 
 

FS2020 has obviously succeeded as it’s become more accessible to a wider range of players. Devs know they’ll get far more sales from these new simmers and reach if marketplace etc than just relying on the older classic flightsim demographic. 
 

What MS/asobo have done by opening the sim up to a wider group through game pass and making the game fantastic on console has been a huge success. 
 

instead of trying to gatekeep your hobby (it’s not just your hobby) , why not enjoy the huge amounts of new content and opportunities that this success has created for us ALL to enjoy. 
 

Playing flightsim is partly how I got into my flying career as a young boy, I’m really pleased to see the recent shake up in the community and all the new players enjoying it and hopefully getting into aviation as a career also. 

 

I.am pretty darn P'd off by people like you trying to define MSFS as a game because...people like you have a PLETHORA of aircraft gaming titles to choose from. MSFS, DCS and X-Plane are the only desktop simulators we have on the market and people like you wish to water it down by trying to relegate them to "its just a game".

 

It makes me sick with frustration. A better question is why are people like you so determined to water down the handful of sims available on the market? 

 

And your false, unfounded accusation that I am somehow trying g to "gatekeep"...where on earth did you get this from? 2st, I had zero input into MSFS so I, like you have no authority whatsoever on who should pick it up and who should not.

 

MSFS is for EVERYONE to enjoy. Young and old, black and white, male and female. Period. However, 

 

1...the core base is simulation

2...however it is verities enough to attract full-on, serious simming adults to pick up and fly 5 years old children. We all have to start somewhere. 

 

But it is not just a game. Too much goes into this title for you to simply classify it as just a game.

 

Sim first Game 2nd. Good day and yes I am frustrated but I am sure you are a nice person and l...really mean no offense.

36 minutes ago, ShawnG said:

Just so you are aware, you are postulating some weird sort of superiority here, but he is an actual commercial 737 pilot, and you are a simmer, posing.

The case was already resting.

1. I speak with confidence and conviction and I am well in my rights to do so.

 

2. Says someone classifying a desktop sim as just a game.

 

3. You made a wrong assumption about me, again proving that people like you plague this community and deter potentially new members from joining due to YOUR false sense of authority. 

 

4. "He" can speak for himself, assuming he is another adult male. Weird for you to wish to defend him like he is being attacked.

 

5. Go along your merry way in deluded land mate. Alright? MSFS is a sim. X-Plane is a sim. DCS word is a sim. Does not mean casual players are not welcomed.

 

You want a game..go to Ace Combat or whatever else is out there. I ground myself with factual information,  not what my own perception is, albeit wrong or right. Sheesh.

 

And there are many, many A-hole pilots in the GA world losing their license everyday so obtaining my CPL (my next step) really does not give one any more authority or privilege over another. 🤨😊Good day and good riddance to you.

Edited June 25, 20232 yr by Coolieboy

9 minutes ago, Coolieboy said:

people like you wish to water it down by trying to relegate them to "its just a game".

No one is watering it down.