I don't wanna wait for the Sept. 25 reveal! Waaaah!

Parent: "Shush! And eat your Weetabix!

Seems a bit spicy in here considered the Q&A in several days away? What is everyone disagreeing on anyway?

Anyway....looking forward to some of the glaring questions.

3 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

It's rather adorable though how MSFS appears to live rent-free in their heads.. that combined with the dearth of activity in that other forum now gives us the pleasure of witnessing their duo comedy act in this forum 🙂  I was hoping for new material though but sadly it appears the same ole acts recycled over and over again.
 

It's a cycle. We have like a week to  really discuss something meaninful. Then they start coming, at this point the only thing we can do is have some fun with them.

But like I said before, I can understand why they do that. It's a bit sad when nothing is really happening on the other side. I mean, there was a certain hype around the FF777, it was supposed to be next big thing happening in the hobby, and noone really cared about it. I feel for them.

======================================================================================

BUT, anyways, like I was saying to Krakin, I really hope MS/Asobo share more info before the Q&A. Use the dev blog updates, use the youtube channel. It´s about time to give us more than the trailers and a few interviews.

Edited September 9, 20241 yr by ca_metal

Edit

Edited September 9, 20241 yr by ca_metal

8 hours ago, Rimshot said:

LOL, sorry, but have you read your own and others' contribution to this thread? Ah well, a case of action and reaction I guess. Thanks everyone for the entertaining thread! I hope we can continue this useless bickering after MSFS 2024 is released 😘

This. Thank you 👍😊

9 hours ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

I've heard that millions of times by now, but so far I have never seen a hard proof - since you repeat these "facts" over and over again I guess you have deeper knowledge about this topic.

There isn’t such things as a hard proof when we talk about perceiption, same as there isn’t any hard proof that any scenery looks better than any other. This is only down to opinions, although I am not saying I don’t share the opinion of last’s point. The fact that airliner pilots all come to that same conclusion/opinion when comparing both is enough proof for me. Your argument that an experienced pilot could not judge that because they are used to fly within the normal enveloppe is quite silly and makes zero sense. As far as I know, no simulator will ever simulate extreme situations, even not a level D-sim. So we are talking about „normal flying enveloppe“ here.

Otherwise you could also watch some of @flying_carpet‚s videos and comment the bahviour we see there for us, as a specialist?  https://www.youtube.com/@flyingcarpet1340

 

 

6 hours ago, ca_metal said:

It's a cycle. We have like a week to  really discuss something meaninful. Then they start coming, at this point the only thing we can do is have some fun with them.

But like I said before, I can understand why they do that. It's a bit sad when nothing is really happening on the other side. I mean, there was a certain hype around the FF777, it was supposed to be next big thing happening in the hobby, and noone really cared about it. I feel for them.

Correct. Yes, the avsim-forum on the other side is pretty dead. There are other forums and discord-channels that are full of reactions. This forum here seems to be mostly for older guys (like myself) U30 having grown up with avsim as one of, if not the main forum for flightsims. I guess you must also belong to that mature generation seeing how often you are commenting here?

Guys. Getting way off topic. 

8 hours ago, Franz007 said:

There isn’t such things as a hard proof when we talk about perceiption, same as there isn’t any hard proof that any scenery looks better than any other. This is only down to opinions, although I am not saying I don’t share the opinion of last’s point. The fact that airliner pilots all come to that same conclusion/opinion when comparing both is enough proof for me. Your argument that an experienced pilot could not judge that because they are used to fly within the normal enveloppe is quite silly and makes zero sense. As far as I know, no simulator will ever simulate extreme situations, even not a level D-sim. So we are talking about „normal flying enveloppe“ here.

Otherwise you could also watch some of @flying_carpet‚s videos and comment the bahviour we see there for us, as a specialist?  https://www.youtube.com/@flyingcarpet1340

 

 

Unfortunately you don't seem to grasp that there ARE hard proofs. How do you think things are being done in real aviation?

I'm really sorry to haver to mention this, but you seem to be completely clueless about what I'm talking about.
In aviation industries and engineering things are not discussed via Youtube videos. Things are discussed with hard numbers.

Just a couple of things I am interested in when judging an aircraft (be it real-life or simulated), very randomly selected:

• Pitch response as a function of elevator deflection and center of gravity ("How "twitchy" is it?") - this, btw, is what differentiates well modelled sim aircraft from ... not so well modelled. Easy to spot within the first ten seconds if the developers got it right or not. If not, the aircraft in question is probably not worth the hassle of further time investment.
• Control effectiveness as a function of deflection ("how much yaw can my rudder produce at x speed? What about yaw induced roll momentum?")
• Asymmetric stalls ("What's the reaction to aileron deflection just above stall speed? Is the wing with the "down" aileron going to stall first due to a correctly modelled stall? How does she stall in a yawed condition?")
• Post-stall behaviour ("Does she spin? If so, how? Behaviour as a function of center of gravity? Gyroscopic effects of a spinning engine?")
• Reaction to turbulence in function of wing loading and center of gravity ("How does she pitch up or down if entering turbulence?")

Just to name a few - my list for these basic things to check is about ffifty times as long.
None of these things are, to quote your own words, "down to opinions" - they all are quantified in numbers in real life, be it as tables, be it as curves.

So, in a nutshell:
If you are unable to provide the numbers on a "flight model" of a PC game, you are unqualified to judge it. Period.

And yes, any PC simulator does simulate extreme situations - there are people who are flying things beyond an AIrbus 320 and who'd like to behave their piston engine fighters similar to what the real things do, even in extreme situations.

Before you ask - yes, this is possible. There are a couple of examples out there in the flight sim world that prove that aircraft with cmplex flight characteristics (and no, an A320 or a Boeing 737 are none of those) can be modelled to fly similar to the real ones.

Is it realistic? Not at all, as long as you don't use the same hardware as in th real aircraft, which rules out 99.999 percent of the users.



Few people understand that in the end it's not the "flight model" of the PC game, but the more or less careful design of the simulated aircraft.

At the moment (September 2024) it is not possible to do real-time calculations of complete aircraft physics, and it won't for a long time. So simplifications have to be made, and any simulated aircraft needs to be tailored to the physics engine of the PC sim in question.

As we see at the moment, it is absolutely not the case that one flight sim engine is significantly better than the other one - all of them have their strengths and weaknesses, none of them have glaring errors anymore.

So may I propose that until you (or anybody else) can come up with some hard proofs beyond Youtube videos, refrain from talking down a product that you simply neither like nor know, and perhaps change your postings to something like "the pitch behaviour of XX's A320 in sim YY in the landing flare feels off to me...")?
Thank you.


Edit:
And now back to topic, please. 😉

Edited September 10, 20241 yr by Ojisan_alpha

8 minutes ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

As we see at the moment, it is absolutely not the case that one flight sim engine is significantly better than the other one - all of them have their strengths and weaknesses, none of them have glaring errors anymore.

This is very important. The majority of all flight model complaints I see are not issues in the simulator but in particular addons.

@Ojisan_alpha

As you said please back to topic 😉

In the meantime (for another topic) could you as a specialist having so much knowledge, please share your results and measurements you did using different platforms, to showcase how you came to your conclusion, since you think hard-evidence exists? Thank you.

One thing I've noticed is that there is no release date on game pass, is that a bit strange - wouldn't you think they would be advertising this to the wider public now - or is this a sign that the release date may slip?

 

1 hour ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

Few people understand that in the end it's not the "flight model" of the PC game, but the more or less careful design of the simulated aircraft.

At the moment (September 2024) it is not possible to do real-time calculations of complete aircraft physics, and it won't for a long time. So simplifications have to be made, and any simulated aircraft needs to be tailored to the physics engine of the PC sim in question.

As we see at the moment, it is absolutely not the case that one flight sim engine is significantly better than the other one - all of them have their strengths and weaknesses, none of them have glaring errors anymore.

Couldn't agree more with all these points above! 
 

58 minutes ago, hanhamreds said:

One thing I've noticed is that there is no release date on game pass, is that a bit strange - wouldn't you think they would be advertising this to the wider public now - or is this a sign that the release date may slip?

 

Unless there's a major issue I can't see the release date slipping, they've been very quiet on any sort of marketing for the product across the board up until now, so perhaps they want a more quiet release and/or a sudden hype splurge nearer the time. 

28 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Couldn't agree more with all these points above! 
 

And with that, maybe the dev/lifestream will discuss new physics/FM issues? Especially if people are going to "migrate" over with their products. Thats what I am curious about.

Also, certainly enough banter about which sim has better physics. None of them do, really.

Though, I will get the premium or whatever higher version there is...I may just wait a few weeks after release first.