1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Each of us will have an expectation what early access software should be, regardless what the developer feels is acceptable.

Sure... but you can't then turn around and push your own pre-defined timeline expectation on the developers if they themselves never published one. This isn't a Kickstarter campaign. You also can't push your own connotation of what early access software should be, it's not an alpha, it's not a beta. its an early access into the development of a product, at which point can be at any point in that development process. If that's something that sounds risky or without sureties to you, then you simply don't partake. I certainly didn't partake in BATC's EA until traffic was released cause I thought it was useless without it. Even so I still didn't think they should've gone EA.

Edited March 24, 20251 yr by Lucky38i

47 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

Even so I still didn't think they should've gone EA.

That dismisses everything you said previously in your post, and is a personal opinion on what EA should be.

9 hours ago, MrNuke said:

If BATC as my chart indicates tells you passing 2,000 feet to contact Dublin CTL and they tell you to climb and maintain 9,000 feet I don't see an issue here either.

If BATC did that I would be more inclined to praise it, but it never has for me. I always get told to climb to half my cruise altitude.

2 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

If you rented that real plane for 500 an hour and found the compass was 60 degrees out, you would complain.

$30 for early access software, in MSFS add-on terms, is not cheap.  If my expectations on how stable it should be for early access are not met, I will complain.

You wouldn't complain about it, you would squawk about it! Ha!

5 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

That dismisses everything you said previously in your post, and is a personal opinion on what EA should be.

The ability to speak on both sides of discussion with rationality is what leads to useful conversation. 

No, I do not think BATC should've released in EA because a lot of people are very detail oriented on something like ATC methodology. Nonetheless, it's what the people voted for. While at the same time a lot of people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what early access is, no it is not my personal opinion on what EA is, it's what's been defined by both Wikipedia and Steam. I take those definitions and use them with regards to my buying habits on EA products.

Quote

Note: Games in Early Access are not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

A lot of people have a very hard time accepting that there is an inherit risk to paying for an early access title because they so caught up in the idea of getting an early access to a product they've been longing for.

So no, nothing I've said dismisses anything I've said to you. There is nothing to define the quality of early access because early access is inherently a random point in the development process. Certain products benefit greatly from it when done well, others done. At the end of the day it's a pricing model like the many others out there.

I tried the 24 hour SI trial over the weekend.  Flew VFR in the Comanche from Whiteman down to Gillespie with a flight following and even went through the LAX special flight rules area.  Everything was going great....for a few minutes.  Once I exited the special flight rules area and was below the Bravo...I was told by ATC to Climb my Comanche up to FL210.  

So yeah...SI has it's issues too and it only took 15 minutes for me to see it.  I'm sure it's good most of the time.  I'm just not paying $200 a year for it right now.  I'll stick with BATC and traffic injection / control.  It works well 90% of the time for me.  I can't wait for even just bare bones VFR support.

3 hours ago, BrianT said:

 If I was told it's not all been tested and finished yet then no it's my fault for not listening properly.

I think you would have rather more problems IRL if that were the case. I would find a new service company and just gently enquire about certification standards.

2 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

A lot of people have a very hard time accepting that there is an inherit risk to paying for an early access title because they so caught up in the idea of getting an early access to a product they've been longing for.

No, not the way I think about early access. Currently in Steam I have tens of early access games.  I keep most but return some for a refund if it is too early for it to be in early access,

 

2 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

Note: Games in Early Access are not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.

Where in the above does it mention the level of bugs you should expect in the early access?  It mentions not complete and may not change further.  I purchase BATC when the online community started to give it good reviews, and after the traffic was added.  I would expect mostly good vectoring and altitude control as these are paramount to ATC.  However, I wouldn't expect fully working SIDS/STARS and TRAFFIC to be 100 percent in an early access.

BATC for me did not vector or control my height realistically, so those alone make it too early for my expectations of what an early access product should offer.

33 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

No, not the way I think about early access. Currently in Steam I have tens of early access games.  I keep most but return some for a refund if it is too early for it to be in early access,

 

Where in the above does it mention the level of bugs you should expect in the early access?  It mentions not complete and may not change further.  I purchase BATC when the online community started to give it good reviews, and after the traffic was added.  I would expect mostly good vectoring and altitude control as these are paramount to ATC.  However, I wouldn't expect fully working SIDS/STARS and TRAFFIC to be 100 percent in an early access.

BATC for me did not vector or control my height realistically, so those alone make it too early for my expectations of what an early access product should offer.

Hard to imagine how they could make this any clearer. I guess that's why some countries have warnings like "don't drink the drain cleaner" and "don't put your cat in the microwave"...

9 minutes ago, Speedbird 217 said:

Hard to imagine how they could make this any clearer. I guess that's why some countries have warnings like "don't drink the drain cleaner" and "don't put your cat in the microwave"...

Some people have a problem reading a couple of sentences, and understanding what they just read...😉

58 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Where in the above does it mention the level of bugs you should expect in the early access? 

I mean this is just hilarious. The statement says "Games in Early Access are not complete". Do I need to turn up with a letter just breaking down what that means because its somehow not clear enough? If I buy a car I'm told is not complete, it's pretty safe to assume it's going to have bugs and incomplete features lol.

 

1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

too early for it to be in early access,

No it's current state is not satisfactory for you. There's no such thing as too early for early access. How many times do I have go over this with you?

I tell you what, I'm going to leave this here because its a clear practice of insanity.

46 minutes ago, Speedbird 217 said:

Hard to imagine how they could make this any clearer. I guess that's why some countries have warnings like "don't drink the drain cleaner" and "don't put your cat in the microwave"...

1 hour ago, Lucky38i said:

No it's current state is not satisfactory for you. There's no such thing as too early for early access. How many times do I have go over this with you?

Different developers release 'early access' software at vastly different stages of development. I have early release software that could be released.  Other developers release when the software barely works.

I have an opinion on how incomplete the software has to be to be considered to me as released too early to be useable.

Is that clear enough for you that I am referring to my opinion, not a developers release schedule?

 

1 hour ago, Lucky38i said:

I mean this is just hilarious. The statement says "Games in Early Access are not complete". Do I need to turn up with a letter just breaking down what that means because its somehow not clear enough?

I think you know where you can put such a condescending attitude.

Please TRY and understand there is a difference between a developers release schedule and what I perceive to be good enough for use.

8 hours ago, Jetman67 said:

people spend 30 dollars on a clearly stated Beta product then complain it has bugs lol, obviously they do not fly real planes that are oh around 500 an hour to rent, $30 please

The definition of a beta product is that all new features are final and the program should work as described although some bugs are likely.

Those bugs should be pretty minor and not prevent you from completing a flight. If they’re preventing you from completing a flight the author hasn’t tested his code sufficiently robustly.

In Radar Contact there’s an option to declare an emergency soon after takeoff. It works despite being rarely used.

If BATC has that option that’s the sort of problem that might be encountered during beta testing and if it doesn’t work that’s not an unreasonable problem.