In the USA, around busy airports, ATC services are provided by controllers who each work their own three-dimensional volume of airspace. When you depart, you are usually cleared to the maximum altitude of the controller who is working the airspace you are in. Typically, tower will control you to 5000 or so, which is why the initial instructions are something like "Maintain 5000 feet, expect [filed altitude] 10 mins after departure." Then the next step is to a controller working 5000 until around 12,000 feet, so your next climb instructions are to 12,000 feet. The next sector is 12,000 feet to about FL250. Then FL250 on up. 

These intermediate altitudes are given on your departure, but in real life you normally don't actually level off at them. While you're climbing to the roof of one controller's airspace, that controller is handing your flight off to the controller working the airspace above. Once that controller accepts your flight, you get a frequency change and new climb instructions, up to the top of that guy's airspace, and the process repeats until you reach your filed altitude.

Thus, it's very common to be given intermediate altitudes, as opposed to climb instructions from the surface (or 5000 feet) directly to your flight planned altitude. But even though you are given these steps, it's uncommon to actually level off at intermediate altitudes, because the controllers want to get you out of their airspace ASAP. They work promptly on those handoffs, and get your flight accepted into the airspace above before you would need to fly level.

There can be some big exceptions: at remote airports, the same controller might work the airspace from 5000 feet all the way to FL510, so you might not get any intermediate altitudes if there isn't any intervening traffic. And speaking of traffic, you can certainly find yourself levelling off at intermediate altitudes any time there is traffic that needs to get out of your way before you can climb.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 20251 yr by prolixindec

26 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

Sure, look at the departures out of NZAA for instance. 

I looked at a few on navigrapgh and saw alt on all of them. Couldnt find a SID chart without alt info.

34 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

And that is when BATC gives an initial altitude. 

 

That’s my point, BATC doesn’t give an initial altitude.

20 minutes ago, Ident said:

I looked at a few on navigrapgh and saw alt on all of them. Couldnt find a SID chart without alt info.

You guys are t understanding the issue. There is generally going to be “altitude information” on SIDs, but Top Altitude is the initial altitude limit. Some SIDs do not have a top altitude, which requires an initial altitude clearance….BATCdoes not issue an initial limit. Look at some of the SIDs out of EIDW for example, look at plate 10-3Q1, the BAMLI1T. You tell me what the top altitude is on that plate. Or the 10-3 plate. There is altitude information, but no assigned top altitude. Fly out on either of those departures, and BATC will say “cleared to WXYZ, Runway 10L, BEPAN2Q, Squawk 1020”. What’s your initial altitude? A real clearance would be “cleared to WXYZ, Runway 10L, BEPAN2Q, initial climb FL60, Squawk 1020”

39 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

….BATCdoes not issue an initial limit. Look at some of the SIDs out of EIDW for example, look at plate 10-3Q1, the BAMLI1T.

  Are you not expected you cross DW990 at exactly 4,000 feet? Hence I wouldn't necessarily expect an "initial limit" your initial limit is the 4,000 foot altitude restriction.

39 minutes ago, V1ROTA7E said:

 Or the 10-3 plate. There is altitude information, but no assigned top altitude. Fly out on either of those departures, and BATC will say “cleared to WXYZ, Runway 10L, BEPAN2Q, Squawk 1020”. What’s your initial altitude? A real clearance would be “cleared to WXYZ, Runway 10L, BEPAN2Q, initial climb FL60, Squawk 1020”

Assuming plate 10-3 is BEPAN2Q, that one you have a slightly better argument on, but even if you were told nothing you know at a minimum are probably cleared to 4,000 due to needing to be above it. I'd be more curious what BATC says after you are in the air at that point because you again have an altitude restriction at the next fix to be below 9,000 feet so you know even if you were given in initial "top" assigned altitude it isn't going to be greater than 9,000 feet. If BATC as my chart indicates tells you passing 2,000 feet to contact Dublin CTL and they tell you to climb and maintain 9,000 feet I don't see an issue here either.

Edited March 24, 20251 yr by MrNuke

Outside of the US I will get an initial altitude instead of just follow SID

Edited March 24, 20251 yr by Tuskin38

I’m over explaining all of this. From a real world pilot’s perspective, if I didn’t have an initial clearance altitude limit on a SID with no Top altitude, and there was no altitude issued by ATC, I’d query to get clarification. Altitude deviations are one of the most, if not the most important considerations when flying under ATC. In the name of safety, there can be no ambiguity when interpreting clearance limits. 

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Anything advertised as Early Access is inherently not "Fully Working"

And nobody forces you to buy any of this stuff. Caveat Emptor is quoted in Latin because, y'know... the concept has been around for "awhile". 😆

I was speaking in general about products in your quote of my words. I did say something about BATC in the last paragraph. Nevertheless, I agree with what you said.

4 hours ago, MrNuke said:

I'd be more curious what BATC says after you are in the air at that point because you again have an altitude restriction at the next fix to be below 9,000 feet so you know even if you were given in initial "top" assigned altitude it isn't going to be greater than 9,000 feet. If BATC as my chart indicates tells you passing 2,000 feet to contact Dublin CTL and they tell you to climb and maintain 9,000 feet I don't see an issue here either.

I've never had it happening that BATC told me a specific constraint alt that's on the SID after take off. When asking for clearance while still on the ground BATC either gives me an initial altitude or it tells me nothing at all: this depends on what is on the chart (though not always). After take off and after being handed over to the next controller I am ALWAYS ordered to go to around 50% of my planned cruise altitude. If my cruise lvl is 310 BATC always tells me to climb to FL150. If my cruise lvl is 200 I am told to climb to FL100. It's always the same: I find this a bit too predictable and a little bit annoying. I doubt if that's realistic?

people spend 30 dollars on a clearly stated Beta product then complain it has bugs lol, obviously they do not fly real planes that are oh around 500 an hour to rent, $30 please

8 hours ago, prolixindec said:

In the USA, around busy airports, ATC services are provided by controllers who each work their own three-dimensional volume of airspace. When you depart, you are usually cleared to the maximum altitude of the controller who is working the airspace you are in. Typically, tower will control you to 5000 or so, which is why the initial instructions are something like "Maintain 5000 feet, expect [filed altitude] 10 mins after departure." Then the next step is to a controller working 5000 until around 12,000 feet, so your next climb instructions are to 12,000 feet. The next sector is 12,000 feet to about FL250. Then FL250 on up. 

These intermediate altitudes are given on your departure, but in real life you normally don't actually level off at them. While you're climbing to the roof of one controller's airspace, that controller is handing your flight off to the controller working the airspace above. Once that controller accepts your flight, you get a frequency change and new climb instructions, up to the top of that guy's airspace, and the process repeats until you reach your filed altitude.

Thus, it's very common to be given intermediate altitudes, as opposed to climb instructions from the surface (or 5000 feet) directly to your flight planned altitude. But even though you are given these steps, it's uncommon to actually level off at intermediate altitudes, because the controllers want to get you out of their airspace ASAP. They work promptly on those handoffs, and get your flight accepted into the airspace above before you would need to fly level.

There can be some big exceptions: at remote airports, the same controller might work the airspace from 5000 feet all the way to FL510, so you might not get any intermediate altitudes if there isn't any intervening traffic. And speaking of traffic, you can certainly find yourself levelling off at intermediate altitudes any time there is traffic that needs to get out of your way before you can climb.

 

 

 

Exactly as handled in good old Radar Contact.

15 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

There is no basis to what defines early access quality. It’s a random point in development that developers feel the public is privy to.

Each of us will have an expectation what early access software should be, regardless what the developer feels is acceptable.

25 minutes ago, Jetman67 said:

people spend 30 dollars on a clearly stated Beta product then complain it has bugs lol, obviously they do not fly real planes that are oh around 500 an hour to rent, $30 please

If you rented that real plane for 500 an hour and found the compass was 60 degrees out, you would complain.

$30 for early access software, in MSFS add-on terms, is not cheap.  If my expectations on how stable it should be for early access are not met, I will complain.

2 hours ago, mistolip said:

After take off and after being handed over to the next controller I am ALWAYS ordered to go to around 50% of my planned cruise altitude. If my cruise lvl is 310 BATC always tells me to climb to FL150. If my cruise lvl is 200 I am told to climb to FL100. It's always the same

This is my experience too, always the same 'scripted' like ATC.  That, together with the huge bugs I have found is not acceptable to me, not even in early access.

6 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

If you rented that real plane for 500 an hour and found the compass was 60 degrees out, you would complain.

If I was told it was in perfect working order then yeah I'd complain. If I was told it's not all been tested and finished yet then no it's my fault for not listening properly.
As regards scripting, are you sayting you think ATC just spew out and random speak? Pilots and ATC speak a particular language and do so in a set way therefore it's scripted. 

37 minutes ago, BrianT said:

If I was told it was in perfect working order then yeah I'd complain. If I was told it's not all been tested and finished yet then no it's my fault for not listening properly.

Aircraft can fly with certain faults, but can't fly with others.  If I was told of non critical faults then fair enough.  If however, I rented an aircraft with a serious defect, I would complain the aircraft was not as described.

 

38 minutes ago, BrianT said:

As regards scripting, are you sayting you think ATC just spew out and random speak? Pilots and ATC speak a particular language and do so in a set way therefore it's scripted. 

ATC in the real world is indeed highly procedural, and rightly so.  The term 'scripted' in relation to BATC is not describing maintaining high quality ATC.  Rather it describes the same repeated clearances, despite the circumstances the flight is in at that moment, i.e. always being cleared to an altitude half of your cruising level every flight (as described by another user above).   In my case I was cleared for the ILS approach to RWY26 when I had just joined the SID at FL220 - 20 miles WEST of the airport.  Bugs of this magnitude, are in my opinion,  not acceptable even in early access.