A few notes...ORBX regulars may remember that there's a bit of a backstory on the prepay policy. It used to be that they'd offer prepay for full price but offer early access. People complained that they weren't always able to take advantage of the early access (which was typically 24 hours before general release) so the policy was changed to a 15 percent discount for prepay. In other words, the notion of a prepay discount is relatively new and it's possible they hadn't thought all the way through the implications of how it works alongside other sales incentives.The suggestion that the most recent prepay period was disappointing may be on target. Something else that's new is the number of products released. ORBX has never before "flooded the zone" like this with eight products in a short period of time. That may have had a chilling effect on sales. I know I used to be an ORBX completist, but faced with the prospect of eight new products jammed together, I froze and decided not to prepay for any of them. I figured I'd space them out and maybe do without some of them. It's fine to pay for regions but I'm becoming a little resistant to the idea of paying $30 US for a regional airport you're not going to visit all that often, no matter how good it is. I doubt I'm the only one feeling that way (I'm usually not). So treating myself as a focus group of one, I can project some shortfalls in the most recent prepay.ORBX tried very hard to drive sales during the prepay period - and that's where some of the problem comes in. It's not just that they offered the discount - it's that they were aggressive about promoting it. In early December there were several communications from ORBX to the general effect of, get your prepay orders in because the products are coming and there won't be any prepay discounts available after December 15. That implies pretty clearly that the prices are going to go up and stay up. The fact that they marketed that way - and then offered the 33 percent discount less than two weeks later - is what leaves a sour aftertaste. Again, it may be a matter of their not having thought through it, or of one hand not knowing what the other one was doing. Nevertheless, as a mentor of mine liked to say, "corporate crises start in the marketing department."As to this notion of whether or not you form a relationship with a business - of course you do. If business was purely, coldly transactional, then businesses wouldn't spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract and retain customers - they'd just offer favorable pricing and leave it at that. But instead they develop brands, customer relationship programs, social media strategies, loyalty and affinity programs... all of which reflect the fact that in its original form, business was based on a genuine relationship between you and the shopkeeper or craftsman who met your needs. As business gets bigger, that sense of personal relationship gets lost, so businesss create brands and such to try to recapture it. Now, all of us in the flightsim community are much closer to the original model of doing business - customers come onto the forums and establish their faces and personalities. Developers do the same. So when a business breaks its word - which is effectively what ORBX did - and then compounds the insult by telling the customers to quit whining and suck it up - it really is a disruption in a personal relationship, not just a change in the status of a cold transaction.I'm disinclined to keep supporting ORBX because I don't like rewarding stupidity and arrogance.If John does what he ought to do - apologize to the longtime customers and offer some kind of redress, such as a discount on future products - then I'll be more inclined to decide that everybody makes mistakes and maybe let them off the hook.Again at the risk of repeating - it's John's message to the customers that's the real problem here.

Likely will now be very very selective ie no more AU airports, or NZ airports just scenery.

Yes, it's the regions that offer the biggest value. The airports are suddenly beginning to seem like an expensive luxury.

A few notes...ORBX regulars may remember that there's a bit of a backstory on the prepay policy. It used to be that they'd offer prepay for full price but offer early access. People complained that they weren't always able to take advantage of the early access (which was typically 24 hours before general release) so the policy was changed to a 15 percent discount for prepay. In other words, the notion of a prepay discount is relatively new and it's possible they hadn't thought all the way through the implications of how it works alongside other sales incentives.The suggestion that the most recent prepay period was disappointing may be on target. Something else that's new is the number of products released. ORBX has never before "flooded the zone" like this with eight products in a short period of time. That may have had a chilling effect on sales. I know I used to be an ORBX completist, but faced with the prospect of eight new products jammed together, I froze and decided not to prepay for any of them. I figured I'd space them out and maybe do without some of them. It's fine to pay for regions but I'm becoming a little resistant to the idea of paying $30 US for a regional airport you're not going to visit all that often, no matter how good it is. I doubt I'm the only one feeling that way (I'm usually not). So treating myself as a focus group of one, I can project some shortfalls in the most recent prepay.ORBX tried very hard to drive sales during the prepay period - and that's where some of the problem comes in. It's not just that they offered the discount - it's that they were aggressive about promoting it. In early December there were several communications from ORBX to the general effect of, get your prepay orders in because the products are coming and there won't be any prepay discounts available after December 15. That implies pretty clearly that the prices are going to go up and stay up. The fact that they marketed that way - and then offered the 33 percent discount less than two weeks later - is what leaves a sour aftertaste. Again, it may be a matter of their not having thought through it, or of one hand not knowing what the other one was doing. Nevertheless, as a mentor of mine liked to say, "corporate crises start in the marketing department."As to this notion of whether or not you form a relationship with a business - of course you do. If business was purely, coldly transactional, then businesses wouldn't spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract and retain customers - they'd just offer favorable pricing and leave it at that. But instead they develop brands, customer relationship programs, social media strategies, loyalty and affinity programs... all of which reflect the fact that in its original form, business was based on a genuine relationship between you and the shopkeeper or craftsman who met your needs. As business gets bigger, that sense of personal relationship gets lost, so businesss create brands and such to try to recapture it. Now, all of us in the flightsim community are much closer to the original model of doing business - customers come onto the forums and establish their faces and personalities. Developers do the same. So when a business breaks its word - which is effectively what ORBX did - and then compounds the insult by telling the customers to quit whining and suck it up - it really is a disruption in a personal relationship, not just a change in the status of a cold transaction.I'm disinclined to keep supporting ORBX because I don't like rewarding stupidity and arrogance.If John does what he ought to do - apologize to the longtime customers and offer some kind of redress, such as a discount on future products - then I'll be more inclined to decide that everybody makes mistakes and maybe let them off the hook.Again at the risk of repeating - it's John's message to the customers that's the real problem here.Yes, it's the regions that offer the biggest value. The airports are suddenly beginning to seem like an expensive luxury.

Well said.

Very eloquently stated Alan, thanks. No mention of names but I have dealt with two software companies where we were unable to address some issues related to the products and my machine, my system, or other conflicting software issues. After some attempts to solve the problem, I received a full refund for the purchase. That gesture has made a continued customer, and I received a "sorry, that our product did not meet your expectations, let us make amends....".

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/40585-2012/page__pid__355921#entry355921

I was just about to post about the above link. It's clear how ORBX feels about its relationship with its supporters.

I was just about to post about the above link. It's clear how ORBX feels about its relationship with its supporters.

I guess "raving fans" has a different meaning down under. Case of sour grapes for all parties, I guess.

Spoilt for choice - have to mull this over while I'm looking for a new fishing rod. NZ South Island could be tempting. Anyway off to BCF!

Wow, so it is possible to fail miserably at PR twice in 24 hours...From JV's post:"Orbx does not rely on pre-pay revenue from its customers to fund development. If we ran the business like that we would have closed our doors quite some time ago. Orbx is fully funded by its shareholders and company owners/directors. Pre-pay was always offered as a benefit to the customer, not Orbx. However, we have deemed that having any sort of pre-pay scheme creates finite delivery expectations for some customers and also a distraction to our developers, so we've abolished it."Aww, you're breaking my heart."I'd like to note that Orbx does not sell 'relationships' with its customers, just the finest quality scenery and airports with the best support. You purchase our products; we support it. Please don't expect anything more than that from our company. We are a business selling quality FS addons, not an internet dating site Very funny. Continuing with that analogy, guess who's getting no second date and a fake phone number with 6 digits?

http://www.orbxsyste...921#entry355921

As it should be!! I often feel for developers when they post a preview and then they get the rush of "when" "how much" " do I get a discount" etc.

Yes."We are a business selling quality FS addons, not an internet dating site."Just say the first part, don't be condescending.Pros- best in the business, creative, fantastic support system, I would line up to be first in line to provide a positive testimonial on their products and support system.Con- please take a leadership and people management skills course.

I guess "raving fans" has a different meaning down under. Case of sour grapes for all parties, I guess.

I don't think so. I think this is simply a lack of marketing savvy. It's been said that all publicity is good publicity. In this case, I doubt that anything good will come out of a sale that didn't really have to happen. Most ORBX aficionados are more than willing to pay the full price. We all know that sales happen every year. We were just caught by surprise. If we would have known, we would have waited for the sale, even though we would gladly pay the advertised price. But, we were not told about a sale.I'm one of those who would rather pay full price for Jefferson, than see all this negative energy towards John and ORBX. That's just me.

Wow, so it is possible to fail miserably at PR twice in 24 hours...From JV's post:"Orbx does not rely on pre-pay revenue from its customers to fund development. If we ran the business like that we would have closed our doors quite some time ago. Orbx is fully funded by its shareholders and company owners/directors. Pre-pay was always offered as a benefit to the customer, not Orbx. However, we have deemed that having any sort of pre-pay scheme creates finite delivery expectations for some customers and also a distraction to our developers, so we've abolished it."Aww, you're breaking my heart."I'd like to note that Orbx does not sell 'relationships' with its customers, just the finest quality scenery and airports with the best support. You purchase our products; we support it. Please don't expect anything more than that from our company. We are a business selling quality FS addons, not an internet dating site Very funny. Continuing with that analogy, guess who's getting no second date and a fake phone number with 6 digits?

Classic!! Well I'm very Happy Mr Venema has put all his cards on the table and told us that we as customers are just a business transaction,Thanks very much John,And a very Happy New Year to you as well! :(

Hello EveryoneI hate to tell you this but I told you all so. Orbx make some very nice products most of the time but the way they treat their customers sucks and has done for a long time. I have had numerous run ins with JV and quite frankly I think he should stick to the scenery designing part of his business and leave the pr work to someone else.If there is something I deserately want to get hold of I will buy it but wont be taking sh1t from them anymore including JV.Their YBBN product is quite frankly faulty in terms of frames, I know it and so does Orbx. Has there been any attention to this - not really, one patch but still pretty marginal for a high end system running high end add on aircraft.Other parts of AUS left unfinished (its certainly not advertised that way).I was told I was too thin skinned over the way JV treated me over an issue I dared bring up some time ago and told to get over it by the orbx groupies. These guys that just got told in a second post that JV wasn't running a dating site.Well I see that the boot is now on the other foot and guess what - they don't like it either judging by the squealing. These are the very same guys that told me I was just a customer and had no right to expect anything from the company.I just bought YBAS in the sale and will watch their other releases with interest but guess what, no way I will pre pay (which I have done with several of their products before) or purchase without a considerable amount of feedback from users prior to my purchase.Highly doubt I will do much more with them anyway as development in Aus is over by the looks and NZSI and NZNI are the only things left that I have any interest at all in. Will have to see what transpires with those.CheersBarra

I'll go elsewhere now to bye bye ORBX w.h.

http://www.orbxsyste...921#entry355921

Not to belabor it (I think all our points have mostly been made) but wow... this just gets better as a corporate communications teaching story of the "how not to do it" variety.JV may not think he sells relationships but he's certainly bought some today.Just not good ones.