Alan, you're spot on. I though jv had a background in pr? Ive bought a lot of orbx in the past based on 'relationship'. The fsx community wants to care. Its really bad business to make your customers feel stupid.

Guys,Please understand that Avsim forums are not the best place to blow off steam against other people (devs or regular members). You can disagree with ORBX or whatever company's policy and express it here freely as far as you do it without personnal attacks.We've already locked a thread on the same item and we'll lock this one if it goes south the same way.If you have something to say to J.Venema, write him a PM, don't throw your anger or settle your scores here.Thx!

I think what John V says in their forum makes sense. We all know (or will know) that always someone else will get the same product with lower price. Why should we be angry because of that? People say that they will never again buy ORBX -prodicts. You can do that. But I will continut buying their sceneries because they are the best ones right now.

Not to belabor it (I think all our points have mostly been made) but wow... this just gets better as a corporate communications teaching story of the "how not to do it" variety.JV may not think he sells relationships but he's certainly bought some today.Just not good ones.

I disagree, I just purchased 2 titles and hope to get more before the sale is over. I don't want a 'relationship" with a vendor or shoot the breeze with them on their forum., If anything this reminds me of the old guy that comes and hangs out at our store that just wants to chat with everyone and hang out when I wish he would just get his product and exit the building, LOL..

We are not angry because someone got a better price. We do not care because we are in need of a relationship. We care that we were deliberately manipulated and treated in a condescending manner. If you bought 8 products and waited 6-8 weeks until just a few days before Christmas holiday before you received them, then only two days later the whole bloody lot of brand new products was put out cheaper than you paid for them (by a big margin) on the same discount as all the old products, then you are not on the same page as those of us who feel badly treated.

I'm a bit sad to see all this anger at what should be a positive time of the year. I have always considered Orbx as very good at cultivating personal relationships with their customers. Their forums are filled with happy customers singing their praises(let's face it, this is quite a rarity in the FSX business). Quite frankly all their plaudits are totally justified as their sceneries are the best in flight-sim for GA flying. I was disappointed with John's responses, I have always felt he was a bit heavy-handed in administering his forums(which is completely within his rights), but SPECIFICALLY naming two loyal forum members/customers and publicly scolding them is beyond good sense. To take a step back from the situation. I can understand his fundamental point. Specifically that they are running a business, not a "dating site." But a component of that success is based upon building and cultivating those loyal relationships. I have several online friends who equate Orbx with Buy, even if the product is outside their typical simming area. As they release even more products in 2012, it'll be interesting to see how well they are recieved. But let's keep it all in perspective. Flightsim is a nice hobby and distraction. There are so many other things in the world to get upset about that a missed sale is probably not all that important. Happy holidays everyone, keep the blue side up.

Michael -I understand your point and I should probably clarify mine. When I talk about relationships, I'm not talking about being the developer's friend or wanting to hang out with the developer. I'm talking about a business relationship - feeling that I can trust the business, that it values my trade, that it will work with me to resolve problems, that it wants me to have a positive experience and puts some effort into getting me to come back and buy again. Think of it in a different context - say, airline travel. It's probably safe to say that I can have a positive experience of, say, Singapore Air, more than I can have a positive experience of, say, a typical US carrier where service has been cut to the bone, I'm herded onto, through and off the flight, and it's clear that what matters is the shareholders, not the passengers or, when it comes down to it, the crew and other employees. It's just a transaction. Now get off the plane. And hurry, we need to board another flight. Mostly we put up with it because we don't have a choice, but the minute we do, the airline that treats us like cattle is going to suffer. The airline that offers me more consideration gets my dollars.It's also different for different kinds of products. I don't haev much of a relationship with the company that makes my batteries - though I do want to know that the batteries are safe and reliable. When it comes to airlines, there's more at stake. And when it comes to flightsim, we're talking about entertainment products where people do form emotional attachments, and where there's no need to buy - it's purely discretionary. And as noted earlier, it's a small community with small companies where we get to know the business leadership directly. So the role of relationship goes way up.I admire ORBX' work and I enjoy their products. I'll probably just buy them more slowly and selectively now, and I might decide to favor other vendors more - not sure.I think we all agree on one point - it's just business.

Very funny. Continuing with that analogy, guess who's getting no second date and a fake phone number with 6 digits?

Thats another 'cornflakes all over the laptop' moment

I understand the anger towards the issue, easy way around it guys. Simply do not purchase any product until the sales come along.If they don't come along, so be it.But at the end of the day, we all have the right to choose where and who we conduct business with.So i see where a lot of you are coming from, but it's you the consumer that makes the ultimate decision on where you spend your $.It's in your hands, not anyone else.Cheers all.

@ ramrodYour response is logical and completetly correct. I think the anger is from the fact that Orbx has heretofore cultivated such strong interpersonal relationships with their loyal customers. People are hurt, as prepaying was viewed as a way to support and sustain the company.

But at the end of the day, we all have the right to choose where and who we conduct business with.So i see where a lot of you are coming from, but it's you the consumer that makes the ultimate decision on where you spend your $.It's in your hands, not anyone else.

Agreed.

Well, i'm not angry, just interested. As alan said, its a good study of how not to do corporate relationships.To clarify for panda, i didn't prepay, so i personally win for this (if i buy). Just feeling bad for some of the long-term orbx groupies.I've followed the orbx story from before their first release. I remember jv posting way back about how the business wasn't necessarily viable, and how more support was needed. Prepay was put forward as a way of helping cashflow, quite different from what john is saying now. I've noted hubris in some of the moderation for a few years now which is why i stopped reading. I think today's forum postings make great theatre, but get an 'F' for 'building good relationships with your customers.'I'm sure i'm not only person here who buys fsx addons because i like the company and want it to survive and keep producing things for my hobby.

Hi,I can understand everyones frustration with ORBX. Here you have loyal customers who part with their hard earned cash up front with only a promise that a product will be released, and yes they make putting up the cash more enticing by offering a 15% discount. This in-turn helps ORBX with operating funds even though the product is not ready for release, this discount also infers that they will be getting a better deal by pre-ording than someone who does not support the company by waiting.Now you have individuals who don't support ORBX in good faith for a product that was not ready for release and they are treated with a 33% discount, sorry that's just WRONG no matter how you spin it!!!.So what do we learn from all this?. Well, I've learned not to support any third party company by offering up my hard earned cash until the product is ready and has been released. If you do, you may get burned by supporting such a company by supplying them with operating funds with nothing to show at the time of payment and then get a slap in the face from said company by paying more for their product.That's one heck of a way for a company to say thank's to the customer who supported them in good faith from the get-go with no product.

Hi,I can understand everyones frustration with ORBX. Here you have loyal customers who part with their hard earned cash up front with only a promise that a product will be released, and yes they make putting up the cash more enticing by offering a 15% discount. This in-turn helps ORBX with operating funds even though the product is not ready for release, this discount also infers that they will be getting a better deal by pre-ording than someone who does not support the company by waiting.Now you have individuals who don't support ORBX in good faith for a product that was not ready for release and they are treated with a 33% discount, sorry that's just WRONG no matter how you spin it!!!.So what do we learn from all this?. Well, I've learned not to support any third party company by offering up my hard earned cash until the product is ready and has been released. If you do, you may get burned by supporting such a company by supplying them with operating funds with nothing to show at the time of payment and then get a slap in the face from said company by paying more for their product.That's one heck of a way for a company to say thank's to the customer who supported them in good faith from the get-go with no product.

The vast majority of customers didn't "support" ORBX by buying their products on a pre paid basis or otherwise.They bought ORBX products because they like what they saw and the price was right.The vast majority of people affected by ORBX's pricing decisions, despite threatening withdrawal of custom and other direconsequences will soon get over their hurt and come running back to ORBX, probably buying some products at full price on the way.Thats the way business works, you produce the goods and people come running. Thats the only reason why people bought ORBX products, well apart from some misguided individuals who thought they were building some kind of relationship with ORBX and it's owner. Get a life people, you don't build a relationship with anything/anyone over the internet.Bryan.

Hi,By ORBX offering a Pre-Purchase at a 15% discount infers that they will be getting a better deal than those that prefer to wait until the time of release. Why in the world would ANYONE pay 18% more by pre-purchasing a product?.How many people here thought they were getting a discount (15%) that would NOT be available to everyone at the time of release since we are talking about a new release?.I can guarantee you that 99% of the individuals up in arms are upset for that EXACT REASON.========================================================================================================================================================Your statement below, is just outright wrong. Maybe YOU don't and/or haven't developed any friends and/or relationships over the internet, but thousands upon thousands have. Myself included, and yes I HAVE A LIFE."Get a life people, you don't build a relationship with anything/anyone over the internet."