Nah Jeroen, you still have lots of friends in both places, and so do I. With a mess like this, there is no right or safe way to respond. In a mud pit everyone gets dirty, whether they are stuck and can't get out, or those who are climbing out over the top, or those who are just now diving in head first.. Kind regards,

@J van EI have appreciated your comments at the orbx forums and here. I have a 'J van E enb series' folder in my fsx directory(!). So please don't feel you're homeless.

Anybody remember Dreamfleet? Terrific products, great community. Then Lou slipped more and more into picking fights with the customers - "You've got complaints? Imagine how difficult/expensive it is to own a real airplane..." and so on.

Hahaha. Yes, that's right. And remember how much he used to despise anyone who dared to use an autopilot? By the end I think he only had time for that old ex-RAF chap who used to fly a Hunter. But good products, as you say.Sorry to drift off topic again..Ian

Pre-pay, never ever did that before Orbx came along and advertised that it would help with cashflow. I hesitated, big time. Didn't agree with it. Paid full price, then thought, I liked this outfits work, wanted to support them, started pre-paying, and liked the approach and product delivery. They did not offer up for sale new products right away - now that's fair to those pre-pay customers.I will never pre-pay again! And I will not buy all Orbx products like I currently have been.

If you have a good, well-supported product at a fair price, the market will bless you with or without goodwill. But if you ever run into some headwinds...lean times or a rocky product release...that goodwill might come in handy.

Thank you Bob, I was waiting patiently for someone to say the MAGIC WORD "Goodwill." :Peace:The development of the goodwill of a business is the fastest and surest way to become rich. Goodwill is wonderful because it is basically wealth that comes out of thin air. Goodwill is not a tangible ‘real’ asset that has to be purchased from retained profits.Goodwill is something that can be developed in the normal course of business without any additional investment being required. Goodwill is a reflection of the fact that you have chosen a good business to get into (one with high barriers to entry) and run it well. Most service businesses (plumbers, builders, consultants, etc) have very little goodwill because such businesses can be started up easily.Goodwill is a premium; it is the extra money you are paid if you sell your business, above and beyond what the tangible assets are worth. As a general principle, a business will be worth somewhere between three and eight times its annual profit after the owner’s salary. (There are lots of exceptions to this, but the basic idea applies to the sale of most businesses).Therefore, if a business is making $100,000 p.a. net profit after tax and after a salary for the owner, and a multiple of four is used, its total value could be $400,000. GAAP does not of course allow a business to record "Good Will" as a line item on the balance sheet until a business has been sold. After a sale or merger, it is then recorded in the category "Intangible Assets."In summary then, to make your business worth a lot of money (and therefore to make you worth a lot of money) you need to work at developing goodwill.Among the lessons I've learned over the years with regards to building Goodwill, these are the primary two:

1. The customer may not always be right, but they are always the customer.
2. The loss of a single sale is worth far less that the lifetime value of a satisfied customer.

Years ago when I worked as a store manager for Radio Shack, I was privileged to have third-generation customers patronize my store. That is the demonstrable evidence of Goodwill at work! :(

Nah Jeroen, you still have lots of friends in both places, and so do I. With a mess like this, there is no right or safe way to respond. In a mud pit everyone gets dirty, whether they are stuck and can't get out, or those who are climbing out over the top, or those who are just now diving in head first.. Kind regards,

Stephen, I really like the way you express things: like a winding road in the countryside that eventually gets you to a destination and a meaning :(

I too would like to endorse Jeroen's home here. You and I may not have always seen things through the same lense Jeroen, but I've always respected your willingness to post things just how you see them, without being offencive - a true Avsimmer!

Hahaha. Yes, that's right. And remember how much he used to despise anyone who dared to use an autopilot? By the end I think he only had time for that old ex-RAF chap who used to fly a Hunter. But good products, as you say. Sorry to drift off topic again.. Ian

We're drifting off topic here but one of the main reasons why Lou and DF closed up shop was because development for FSX was a big change from FS9, and that Lou's next project was to be a C210 - except Textron wanted royalties and DF was fed up with that. I did a lot of testing for DF with FS2002 and FS9 and I don't feel customers were treated improperly. I was first a customer, then a tester later on. Dreamfleet created many excellent products.

Jeroen, nice to see you back my friend. :(

I must admit that I appreciate the contrast and contradiction on behalf of certain developers over the last few days. It's really rather funny;Certain individuals' and developers' reaction to the recent Orbx situation"I'd like to note that Orbx does not sell 'relationships' with its customers, just the finest quality scenery and airports with the best support. You purchase our products; we support it. Please don't expect anything more than that from our company. We are a business selling quality FS addons, not an internet dating siteCertain individuals' and developers' reaction to complaints from customers about the productWhy do you feel the need to complain? Surely you realise we're all just a family pulling together here. This isn't like any other business, we're all just individuals working towards a shared passion and common ground. So what if it takes us several months to fix a major problem in our release, we're all friends and we support each other right? That's how this community is?How many times do we see the above!

We're drifting off topic here but one of the main reasons why Lou and DF closed up shop was because development for FSX was a big change from FS9, and that Lou's next project was to be a C210 - except Textron wanted royalties and DF was fed up with that. I did a lot of testing for DF with FS2002 and FS9 and I don't feel customers were treated improperly. I was first a customer, then a tester later on. Dreamfleet created many excellent products.

That they did. And there were never any questions about fair treatment. You're also correct about the royalty issue, though I think that was only part of the picture. Lou was clearly getting more and more frustrated in dealing with the forum crowd - maybe that was connected to other frustrations like the long development cycle - but over time it made the forums a less pleasant place to be, unless you were part of the inner circle.I guess my main point, though, is that I remember a time when I couldn't imagine MSFS without Dreamfleet, and now I don't miss them and don't think about them from one month to the next. Things change and the top dog doesn't necessarily remain the top dog - something that most businesses would do well to keep in mind.

Jeroen - I see that your apology post did in fact produce a more conciliatory response from John V. That's a pretty big accomplishment. All credit to you for taking that step and in the process illustrating the value of putting down the gun. The fact that JV has edited out his "Internet dating site" comment, offered a more rational explanation of what went wrong with the prepays, and affirmed that he values his customers makes me more willing to consider resuming a relationship with ORBX - that is, buying from them again. Maybe tomorrow, when the credit card cycles onto a new month. Well done.

Except that posts to the apology thread have been removed, including my own where I stated that things could have been handled better by BOTH sides.Yet, a post by 'Teecee' in the same thread using the words...."thanks to a small greedy group with big mouths" in reference to the unhappy customers, is allowed to remain.

Except that posts to the apology thread have been removed, including my own where I stated that things could have been handled better by BOTH sides.Yet, a post by 'Teecee' in the same thread using the words...."thanks to a small greedy group with big mouths" in reference to the unhappy customers, is allowed to remain.

Ah. Hadn't been aware of the deleted posts. Did see Teecee's post. The fact that that was left standing says way too much. I'm always hopeful for change and reconciliation but I guess we're not quite there yet. A shame.

I'm always hopeful for change and reconciliation but I guess we're not quite there yet. A shame.

Don't hold your breath Alan. Leopards and spots?