I have read their EUAL ad nasuem ... and unless LM changes their minds, IMHO the hobby of flying heavy commercial jets on the home pc is doomed.  XPX is not the answer, it is a GA focused platform, no AI traffic, no immersion.  FSX is a dead end, an unstable unfinished mess.

It's really hard to say.  They may change their minds just for PR sake.  I know one thing--the EULA is what it is, and has to be taken w/ a large grain of salt.  If LM was truly concerned about restricting use you would not see the noncommercial oriented user forum, you would see demands to verify you belong in the correct user cohort, like evidence you're connected to an aviation school or what have you.  Beyond the EULA LM staff has stated, pardon the paraphrase, 'would not ignore our general user base', etc.  I forget the exact comment, but in effect it was 'don't worry, we won't leave you [the general, non-commercial user] out.  

 

The other reality is if PMDG can optimize (can't wait to hear the first real information about what that can possibly mean since at this point it's just a hope) their offerings, most everyone here can afford the few hundred dollars to add one to their hangars.  Buy a new complex aircraft every week?  Nope, but invest in one decent one and stick w/ it seems doable even if the price is up.  I also doubt PMDG can put all its eggs in one basket by dedicating 100% to commercial use.

So to switch over to P3D, after investing probably $500 - $1000 in FSX (weather, scenery, flight planning, and very expensive aircraft), I now have to fork out another $200 for the license, and most of my more expensive aircraft will (probably) not work with P3D until:

 

1) PMDG gets around to making it so, and

2) I pay another $200 to $400 (if you guys are right about PMDG licensing for P3D) so that I can now fly all of my costly aircraft in P3D.

 

Well, I guess I'm now out of my league. Flight simming is being priced out of the market for us old guys on retirement and pensions.  Right now, I'm cheating by flying with my old Saitek X52 and pedals, on a machine (you can look at my PC) that is making it right now.  But I keep trying to keep up, and the planes keep getting more and more expensive (even the lowly Flight1 King Air I want next is $60), I cannot see any future in this hobby if I can't afford it. 

 

So I guess I'm stuck with FSX for the duration. I've actually got it to fly very well with little trouble (as long as I don't keep switching to outside views :huh: ) and everything I buy right now works with it. I'll hold the fort until FSX doesn't work anymore, and then I'll take up another hobby, like Call of Duty :p0128:

 

Let me clarify that "probably".  PMDG aircraft do not work with P3D V2 and up.  You can install it, but it will not work.  It will sit there, you can get it off of the ground but it might as well be the Microsoft Air Trike for all of the functionality.  I don't endorse that you can install it, because PMDG says no in their EULA. 

 

Remember when I said "you will pay more because PMDG's release will not be the same aircraft as the FSX"?  Well, the P3D code is different enough from the FSX code now that PMDG doesn't work with it.  There are some modules that are probably incompatible between the two.  However, IMO the P3D engine will continue to move farther away from FSX to the point that add-ons for FSX that work now (Q400, FS2Crew, GSX, etc including airports) may not work in future versions.  For future editions of P3D, NOTHING you and I have now may work.  So if you're gonna go P3D, please PLEASE keep in mind that you should be ready to be all-in regarding costs, as you may be starting over.  Not now, but later...

 

EDIT:  There's probably a lot of users like you here on the forums who are simming and the price is slowly getting out of reach.  My advice would be to stick with what you have, as even my old Windows games (98 and later) run fine on everything through Windows 8.1.  Do what you can do, and try DCS World for free.  If you like it, the add-ons are cheaper, and the immersion/study-sim effect is better than FSX IMHO.  Flight dynamics are more realistic as well.  They are also reworking the IL2 engine and the Fw190D-9 and Bf109K-4 will both be great study sims.

For great study sims, also keep FalconBMS in mind, still under active development with an online community of thousands.

Ahhhh... BMS. Like that girl you dated in high school that you can never forget... I still love Falcon. If the graphics would just get better.

If much more expensive as you surmise, I would like to hear valid reasons for that, because AFAIK there aren't any.

(emphasis mine)

 

Exactly. As far as I know, you are not working for PMDG, neither am I, and neither are most of the forum members here.

This means, that none of us are aware of the licensing costs and the time involved in converting existing add-ons to P3D.

The fact that it takes PMDG this long to actually get something inside P3D legally, makes one think these costs are rather high, don't they?

 

All we have to base our opinions on, is this:

P3D, as it currently exists, is targeted at a commercial/professional/academic audience. Most of the people discussing in this thread probably don't fall under any of those three categories, even though they would like to.

LM bought the license to use and edit ESP, not FSX. The rights for FSX were sold to DoveTail Games only a short while ago. ESP was the commercial variant of FSX, and in the form of P3D, it still is. Chances are rather high LM only bought the rights to commercially distribute ESP (P3D) and modify it. This means they can't just rewrite their EULA to include entertainment use, they'd have to pay extra (either to Microsoft or DoveTail, depending on how THAT agreement was written) in order for that to be legally possible.

 

For a home user, none of this really matters. LM is never going to sue you because you use P3D for entertainment purposes. Just like Adobe would never sue you for torrenting the Creative Suite, Apple would never sue you for downloading an OS illegally....

However, PMDG themselves could get sued if they don't cover their asses, either by LM, Microsoft, Boeing, someone else, or a combination of those. The outcome of this discussion does not depend on whether you, as a home user, need to worry, it only depends on whether PMDG needs to worry.

 

Another factor that plays a role in this whole debate:

People often refer to Aerosoft, with the Airbus Extended, in these discussions, to give some sort of "proof" that it is possible to get a "complex" add-on in P3D. Sure it is, but those same people forget one very important point...

Aerosoft has no intention to crack open the commercial market with their add-ons. They don't intend to produce add-ons which are to be used (officially) as ways for airlines to train their pilots. It's not a big secret PMDG does intend to do those things. Getting all these factors to play together on a legal basis can be quite tricky, and VERY expensive. Somebody needs to carry the burden of those costs. There are two solutions to this problem. Either they make all future add-ons a fraction more expensive, or they place that burden on the people who should be carrying it: the people who are actually going to use it, the P3D customers.

I'm terribly sorry, but as a non-P3D user, I simply don't feel like paying extra for something I can't even use. I have a feeling most people feel this way, that's why the P3D add-ons will be more expensive, no matter what. It's the fairest way of doing business.

 

 

Exactly

 

Thanks for laying it all out nicely in one post Thomas.  The whole ESP vs. FSX rights seem to be the sticking point that most people can't grasp.

Arguing over P3D legalese is nothing but a dead end. This has already been done ad nauseum on multiple forums. T - shirts have already been made and are now getting holes in them.

 

To me, the biggest hurdle impacting P3D licensing was stated in RR's 2nd to last paragraph regarding simming and the media. Never before have we had a situation like this and it is a big deal to those outside of our hobby. We can argue entertainment vs commercial all day long. P3D is not the real issue. In the end PMDG is selling Boeing-endorsed products that simulate the real things, and they are being used in both the entertainment and commercial worlds. The difference in what is simulated between the entertainment and commercial versions is probably very minimal. We live in a new world now where the line between entertainment and commercial is quite blurred. That happened long before LM purchased ESP. The recent events in the media that highlighted our hobby just made that line more blurry whether we like it or not. I don't blame PMDG for covering their arses. I hope the price is not going to be prohibitive and I am sure they know that.

 

Todd

No, it would NOT be "illegal", just contrary to the EULA, that would be a tort, a civil issue, not criminal.

 

And in any case, I have yet to hear of LM pursuing the matter, my impression is they simply dont care about that affair.

 

 

 

 

I will be willing to buy a REASONABLY priced version for P3D, ie on a par with FSX version.

 

If much more expensive as you surmise, I would like tio hear valid reasons for that, because AFAIK there aren't any.

 

True about the tort thing but I have to disagree with the they dont care matter. I understand your angle but remember If they didnt care and it didnt make a difference, PMDG wouldnt bother making different versions of their p3d products (yes there are subtypes of licenses for the p3d line including familiarization/general training and the airline training centre version to put it birefly)

Let me clarify that "probably". PMDG aircraft do not work with P3D V2 and up. You can install it, but it will not work. It will sit there, you can get it off of the ground but it might as well be the Microsoft Air Trike for all of the functionality. I don't endorse that you can install it, because PMDG says no in their EULA.

 

Remember when I said "you will pay more because PMDG's release will not be the same aircraft as the FSX"? Well, the P3D code is different enough from the FSX code now that PMDG doesn't work with it. There are some modules that are probably incompatible between the two. However, IMO the P3D engine will continue to move farther away from FSX to the point that add-ons for FSX that work now (Q400, FS2Crew, GSX, etc including airports) may not work in future versions. For future editions of P3D, NOTHING you and I have now may work. So if you're gonna go P3D, please PLEASE keep in mind that you should be ready to be all-in regarding costs, as you may be starting over. Not now, but later...

 

EDIT: There's probably a lot of users like you here on the forums who are simming and the price is slowly getting out of reach. My advice would be to stick with what you have, as even my old Windows games (98 and later) run fine on everything through Windows 8.1. Do what you can do, and try DCS World for free. If you like it, the add-ons are cheaper, and the immersion/study-sim effect is better than FSX IMHO. Flight dynamics are more realistic as well. They are also reworking the IL2 engine and the Fw190D-9 and Bf109K-4 will both be great study sims.

 

Youre mistaken buddy! Just go in youtube the NGX and the 777 work in p3d 2.2. The only problem is that the ngx hud doesnt work and the 2d panels are laggy, you have to fly strictly vc. I wouldnt recommend trying tho since its against eula

Without being unkind this debate is extraordinarily circular, it's pivot point never shifting far, but the repetitive formations simply recurring almost endlessly.

 

At present, the iFly 737, the Blackbox simulations 320 and 330, with an upgrade due soon, and the excellent Aerosoft Airbus Extended are all available for P3D.

 

Yes it will be great to get the listed PMDG products, but life goes on, and so does my simming pleasure.

 

It's up to PMDG, not me or you, to decide whether to be in a market where P3D2 is rapidly catching FSX.

 

It is their business choice as to whether they can afford to continue to ignore P3D.

Just two hopes I have as PMDG is entering P3D:

 

1) pricing should be affordable (and with affordable I do not mean in comparison to a full flight sim lesson )

With hopefully a good discount for existing, loyal, long time customers

 

2) hopefully we do not have to wait tooooo long

 

 

 

Anything else doesn't interest me!

 

And we won't get any response from PMDG here, so we could stop all discussions till one day the Captain will come up with an update.

My purpose here is not to start or participate in a never-ending, circular debate.  I simply want PMDG to know my opinion as a past and potential future customer.  If they want to keep my business their pricing model needs to remain affordable.  

I cannot see why all the leading flight simulation software suppliers do not develop a flight sim program of their own?

 

I know that Aerosoft were planning to when, it was announced that Microshaft wouldn't be doing any more.

 

The resources and the knowledge is out there, together with the Aces group that wasn't allowed to finish FSX so, if this happened we would have 64 bits, touch screen and a license to last and last.

 

The best guaranteed future for all suppliers.

 

What about it guys?  Are you not interested in your future, long term?

 

Why bother ? There is already an amazing simulator thats 64 bit !!!:

 

 

 

I might remind every one here that is making up all sorts of equations as to what the pricing will be for a P3D release of PMDG products, this includes you Kyle.

 

No one here knows what PMDG are going to do in regards to pricing.

 

I see every one can type, but no one can be bothered to read.

 

If you wish to step up to one of our enterprise solutions on P3D or Xplane, you won't find the cost difference to be too dramatic

 

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/427010-multi-platform-pricing-policy-expectations-fsxp3dxplane/

 

Robert also said

 

These options will initially include only a General Study, Education/Academic-STEM and Familiarization

Please take the time to read the facts before creating 6 pages of complete and utter un-verified statements based on assumptions of how you think things are going to happen.

 

Regards

Kirk

My own consensus of opinion, based on talks with a whole lot of simmers flying in P3D is that the "student" version is perfectly okay to buy and fly if you are a home-based flight sim enthusiast. LM isn't interested in those of us who fly for enjoyment in our dens and man-caves - they are concerned with the use of their product for professional instruction and guidance, such as FBOs and flight schools and other commercial ventures.

 

And so, it may not be out of my own financial reach. But that's just the sim. To purchase the P3D versions from a company like PMDG might also be too much to pay fpr me. I cringed but bit the bullet when I paid $90 for the 777, but I just did an assessment of what I have spent on flight simming since I reloaded FSX about 17 years ago - the total comes to over $1800 in hardware and software, and I am slowly reaching the point of diminishing returns. Perhaps I will purchase P3D and try it with the aircraft that DO work with it, to see what, if anything, makes it the better package.

 

But I will not be paying $200 for it at any time. If LM were to come out with a statement saying that hobbiest flight simmers need to purchase the full version, then I would heed their words and forget about it. We'll see...

I would be actually happy to pay $200, given the fact that I have not already bought the FSX version and attach a certain value to the product. I have recently resumed simming and went to P3D academic as it was easiest to buy and gave me some modern features I will not find in FSX. To be clear, I will not invest even $80 into something outdated that does not have a future, especially if I were to invest into an ecosystem of add-ons that easily exceed the 80 bucks of the platform. Would you buy Windows and spend thousands on applications if you knew Microsoft has abandoned the platform?

 

That said, it is entirely PMDG's choice how and when to go ahead on this. On the other hand, I do not have any understanding for people who try to circumvent constraints, because it is PMDG's job to make it work and not ours.

 

However, I would put it into the responsibility of PMDG to end this useless speculation. I assume most of the issues have been fleshed out to the point that you can make a more concrete statement to your loyal customers. Looking at the responses in this thread, your communication does not reach the audience in a way that is needed.

 

Looking at my business in other areas, this is an increasingly spreading disease, delaying any concrete comms until the latest possible point not because of uncertainty, but just to keep every option open. As a result, some might chose to spend endless hours on speculating in forums, others simply walk away.