Wow, thank you for that incredibly detailed and informative explanation of the flight characteristics of the A320. I can't wait to see the responses from the AVSIM Airbus community

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Wow, thank you for that incredibly detailed and informative explanation of the flight characteristics of the A320. I can't wait to see the responses from the AVSIM Airbus community

What do you expect so see? We have an ex A320 pilot, who's a beta tester for FSL, that says the FSL feels more realistic than the Fenix in regards to flight dynamics. That's fair.
We also had another A320 pilot, KatiePilot, who worked for the Fenix team and was streaming the FSL now, and who said both are very similar in regards to systems depth. That's also fair. Then we had another (ex?) A320 pilot, V1Simulations, who said the Fenix felt better than the Tolis in regards to flight dynamics. A330Driver, a real life Airbus pilot, also very much likes the Fenix and sees no sense in even trying out the FSL. So what to make out of all these different real pilot opinions?

Whether flight dynamics or systems depth or visuals or textures or sounds or hardware input or price or whatever matter to any given simmer, is a purely personal question.
Personally I do believe the FSL to be superior in flight dynamics and training scenario related stuff (EO etc.), and the Fenix slightly superior in systems depth, and anything else of the above hugely in favor of the Fenix. So for me the answer is clear. If I was an A321 pilot and would need something for training at home, the answer might be different.

 

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I can't wait to see the responses from the AVSIM Airbus community

A very interesting post for sure. I particularly appreciate the approach of combining technical details and the "feel". I would like to see more of this from other, valued real Airbus pilots on YT. It deepens the understanding of why certain aspects of product X "feel" realistic or unrealistic.

However, I would have appreciated it more if the beta tester involved in the FSL development had limited his comments to the positive aspects of "his own" product, without branding the competitor's product as "sterile and characterless". I have no doubt that this reflects his honest impressions, but for me it leaves the impression of a certain bias.

I enjoyed "my" FSL in P3d just as much as I now enjoy the Fenix, even if I sometimes struggle with the handling, especially on the immediate final approach. With the PMDG737 - and after my faded memory of FSL in P3d - I actually have/had a better feeling about their flight models, so I can understand the comments well.
However, I also believe that just as the author described for the real model, the character of the simulated counterpart becomes just as habitual, and so I remain unsure whether I should venture out of my comfort zone with the Fenix. I will certainly follow the further development of both and ask myself this question from time to time.

Tremendous post, thanks for the explanation. I fly Toliss but all  real a320 pilots I know who have no social media interests still fly FSL in P3D, something good has to have FSL.

Having just got round to installing I seem to have hit the problem that quite a few are reporting on the FSLabs forum. (Aircraft loads but get error FSLabs data not loaded so aircraft does not actually work. I have just uninstalled and reinstalled and trying the tricks people have come up with to see what happens before I send a ticket. Will post what happens. Have to say the control centre is still easy to use like before.

Edit: The only thing I did change was where the control center was installed and added an exclusion for it detailed from a buyer on the forum and it now seems to work.

Edited December 21, 20241 yr by carlanthony24

The thing is, Fenix has a Discord channel, a large community, with members of the developer participating and talking directly to their customers. This is really cool, but it doesn't interfere with the quality of the product.

And many users take this fact into account when evaluating the quality of the addon.

Similarly, FSlabs has had support issues in the past, and many people take this into consideration.

However, support is one thing, and the final quality of the product is another. One thing cannot interfere with the other.

I really hope the Fenix team evolves, they have a lot of potential, many qualities especially having close contact with their customers. However, for those who fly IRL, the way their aircraft behaves, especially in manual flight, is an insult. I think this is a shame, but it needs to be addressed so they can evolve in the future.

Regarding FSlabs, it is clear that their simulation is much more faithful to reality. And we were really missing a complete Airbus for the MSFS20-24, because there is no point in having several options on the market if none of them are complete. And now we have one.

And this is great for us!

23 minutes ago, Trovis said:

Similarly, FSlabs has had support issues in the past, and many people take this into consideration.

 

 

Such as???

42 minutes ago, Trovis said:

I really hope the Fenix team evolves, they have a lot of potential, many qualities especially having close contact with their customers. However, for those who fly IRL, the way their aircraft behaves, especially in manual flight, is an insult. I think this is a shame, but it needs to be addressed so they can evolve in the future.

Regarding FSlabs, it is clear that their simulation is much more faithful to reality. And we were really missing a complete Airbus for the MSFS20-24, because there is no point in having several options on the market if none of them are complete. And now we have one.

Umm for those who fly IRL, the way the Fenix flies manually or auto is anything but an "insult":

One IRL 320 pilot on the FSL and Fenix FMs: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/658190-reported-fsl-has-just-released-their-a321-for-msfs2020/page/17/#findComment-5291531
My opinion on the flight models is they are both very close to the real thing.
FSLabs is probably a little bit too much "on rails", i.e. it sticks to whatever path it's on regardless of outside influence. - Yet still very very close to the real thing in terms of what I expect the plane to do when i apply an input. Perhaps it feels to me like it's been set to "easy mode" with regards to the flight model. - but still extremely accurate and satisfying to fly.
Fenix, to my taste, is probably slightly more in line with what I would expect the plane to do when handflying, i.e. it's still very much "point and shoot", but also does get affected by the environment around it. If I had to be super picky and critical, perhaps the environment affects it slightly too much (i personally set turb to low for this reason) - but my word, it's close.

Another IRL pilot's take on the Fenix vs Toliss in various aspects including flight dynamics: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/654326-msfs-2024-flight-dynamics-and-groundwater-handling-thread/page/8/#findComment-5265248

Given that the FSL apparently uses the legacy flight model in MSFS (of course with lots of customizations/overrides) it doesn't surprise me as Katie observes that it flies a bit much "on rails" given that was the trademark characteristic of FSX and P3D flight dynamics.

Regardless, it's clear that we have two great products here in the FSL and Fenix, and quite frankly we're spoiled for choice now with MSFS which is all that we sim users can ask for. Given that systems and flight dynamics are a wash when it comes to FSL vs Fenix, it'll be the other differentiating factors that would likely influence the purchase for those don't already have a high fidelity A320 in the first place. In my case, I don't see anything that the FSL offers that makes it stand out in significant ways from the Fenix (whereas the Fenix does: visual fidelity), so I'll be awaiting FSL's Concorde or A330, and maybe give their A320neo a look when it releases.
 

Edited December 21, 20241 yr by lwt1971

1 hour ago, ha5mvo said:

Such as???

such as they never consider to provide me a help even i submitted official support ticket, also look at their forums, where many posts and questions remains not answered for weeks or months

Not quoting you @DEHowie but thank you for this post. For a home simmer, reading this level of detail from someone with deep experience is really wonderful. 
 

I will never fly an Airbus in real life but reading your description made me want to! Lovely to see your passion for aviation and this plane shine through. 
 

Once FSLabs comes to 2024 I will certainly consider it. I’m fortunate to be in a position where I can easily get both addons and I fully intend to enjoy them both. 

Edited December 21, 20241 yr by JonathanC

I don’t have a dog in this fight as I own loads of Airbus models over several platforms, FSL in P3D, tollis 320 and 340 , and flight factor 320 in XP, and fenix in ms20……and I can’t fly any of them, I’ve never learned Airbus.

I keep buying these things thinking one day I’ll learn to fly them but never do.

However I just wanted to say what an interesting and excellent post by Darren there.

I can’t say I share his enthusiasm about the 787 but that’s by the by 😉

I find the whole ”Fenix is missing the soul of the Airbus” argument a bit bad in taste, especially when it comes from someone who works with FSL and has a clear bias. ”Soul” is a highly subjective point as it may vary depending on personal expectations and cannot be measured or definitively compared in technical terms. To illustrate this here is what other A320 family pilots have said about these two add-ons: 

- Blackbox711 says they Fenix and FSL feel very similar to hand fly but he prefers the FSL in the flare. 

- Katiepilot says both Fenix and FSL are very close but that she prefers Fenix as FSL feels a bit too much on rails. 

- Intotheblue says both are good but that he prefers the flight model of the Fenix. 

- V1simulations says that the Fenix is very close to the real thing and is not interested in getting the FSL. 

This just goes to show how subjective a topic like ”soul” and ”feel” is. I’m sure both teams can bring forth real world pilots from their testing teams that will and can vouch that one product feels better than the other. It’s gotten to a point where ”real pilot opinions” are as conflicting as varying wind speeds. 

54 minutes ago, Cruller_Gallops said:

This just goes to show how subjective a topic like ”soul” and ”feel” is

A bit off topic, but I’m genuinely curious about how ‘the numbers’ are collected and audited. Is it the FAA? Manufacturers only? Are they cross-referenced over multiple countries to makes sure they match over all elevations / temps / humidities / etc.? Do pilots give regular feedback about how they match their experience and if so do they generally stand up?

5 hours ago, Cruller_Gallops said:

I find the whole ”Fenix is missing the soul of the Airbus” argument a bit bad in taste, especially when it comes from someone who works with FSL and has a clear bias. ”Soul” is a highly subjective point as it may vary depending on personal expectations and cannot be measured or definitively compared in technical terms. To illustrate this here is what other A320 family pilots have said about these two add-ons: 

- Blackbox711 says they Fenix and FSL feel very similar to hand fly but he prefers the FSL in the flare. 

- Katiepilot says both Fenix and FSL are very close but that she prefers Fenix as FSL feels a bit too much on rails. 

- Intotheblue says both are good but that he prefers the flight model of the Fenix. 

- V1simulations says that the Fenix is very close to the real thing and is not interested in getting the FSL. 

This just goes to show how subjective a topic like ”soul” and ”feel” is. I’m sure both teams can bring forth real world pilots from their testing teams that will and can vouch that one product feels better than the other. It’s gotten to a point where ”real pilot opinions” are as conflicting as varying wind speeds. 

Thank you for bringing this up!  I am not a real life pilot but I do watch several of the streamers above.  For those that don't watch any of the streamers above and aren't aware of their background, I think you should probably know this:

1. My understanding is that Blackbox helped the FSL team test before.  Blackbox was also one of the first announced testers for the Fenix A320 project but he left the project at some point. If my memory is correct, it was close to when the Fenix A320 was being released. Having said that, Blackbox has always talked very positively of the FSLabs on his stream, even when he compared the P3D FSLabs to Fenix.
    
2. Kaitiepilot was the coder responsible for the tablet in the original Fenix A320 release. At some point, Katiepilot was no longer responsible for the tablet and I even thought she had left the Fenix team.  However, two people here at Avsim mentioned that she is still listed as an employee for Fenix according to her listing on the Discord channel?  Well, maybe someone else who knows the details of this can clarify on this matter.  Nevertheless, I believe she also has a good relationship with the FSLabs team and FSLabs was more than happy to have Katie demo the FSL A321 for the release of it on her Twitch TV channel.
    
3. V1simulations did a comparison of the Fenix and Toliss recently and according to V1, the Fenix came out on top in almost every category: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTOeK4Zn630&t=8388s. V1 pretty much called the Fenix "the highest simulation of an Airbus series aircraft to date ": https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/656372-v1-simulations-rates-fenix-higher-than-toliss/#findComment-5262716. Unfortunately, I read that V1 doesn't plan to get the FSL A321 so unless he gets a review copy or he changes his mind and buys it, I guess we won't have a review from V1 of the FSL A321.  I would have loved to see his comparison of the FSL A321 not only to the Fenix, but to the Toliss as well.

My take on this, after reading a lot of feedback and reviews of the FSL A321, is that they did a stellar job on it.  Now Fenix has pretty much set the new standard for textures and so many other airplane add-on projects are compared to Fenix textures these days.  When it come to textures, perhaps Fenix is the "Michael Jordan" of textures and comparing most NBA players to Michael Jordan is a really difficult comparison to make for that NBA player (mind you, if you made it the NBA, you are already the top 0.001% of basketball players in the world, you are already elite at basketball).  So aside from the textures, it seems like the feedback and reviews of the FSL A321 has been very positive from what I have read or watched on stream so far, including from various real life A320 pilot.

I do want to say that everyone has their biases.  Flight2Deck likes the Zibo over the PMDG but my understanding is that he is an actual tester for the Zibo.  A330Driver (formerly 737NGDriver) was a tester for the PMDG 737 team and he thinks the PMDG 737 is the best.

When I try to factor in the biases that people have, including the streamers above, based on everything I have read or watched on stream, the FSL A321 and Fenix A319/A320/A321 in MSFS are both very well made add-ons and are the cream of the crop (having said that, it would be awesome if FSLabs could match Fenix's textures, not an easy feat of course).  It's just unfortunate that the FSL A321 for MSFS came out after the Fenix. I look forward to the next FSL project for MSFS where nobody else has attempted a high fidelity version of it or even a medium-high fidelity version of, but off the top of my head, that would be the A340 and Concorde that is left for MSFS for FSLabs, unless they venture to some aircraft line that is outside their comfort zone. 

If you consider Fenix, FSLabs, PMDG to be high fidelity and "study level," and iniBuilds to be medium-high fidelity, my guess is that it won't be long until iniBuilds will do the A340 next. They have already done the A300, A310, A320 Neo, A321 Neo, and A330 for MSFS. They are currently working on the A220 (with Synaptic Simulations) and should release the A350 in Q1 of 2025 for MSFS.  So the time is ticking on the A340 for MSFS, I can inevitably see iniBuilds doing that as their next Airbus project, if they haven't started on it yet.

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 20241 yr by abrams_tank

Just wanted to reach out to say thanks for the several messages here and off board plus discord regarding the post i put up a big thanks.

Also to clarify I "do not get paid" by FSlabs I and other testers do it because we want to share our knowledge and experience with the community. As someone not being paid as can be backed up by any non paid testers you have absolutely no responsibility to be a mouthpiece for those you assist with your expertise. One of the sad things in flight simulation is consumers dont get to see the utterly huge amount of work to get an addon out the door. In fact I dont know as programming this stuff is so far beyond my pay grade that it still stuns me that these addons even exist for the tiny amount of money they cost. To then get a product like the FSlabs that flies almost exactly the real aircraft does, i can use every real world technique and get the same results ie decel times, distances and speed reductions is a true testament to how far flight simulation has come since Sublogic in the 80's.

The "assumption" we do it(Beta testing) for money couldn't be further from the truth. I mean until MSFS came along devs where battling to scratch a living even the biggest name devs. We do it for nothing because to those involved at this level our expertise adds the edge to make things as truly accurate as possible. To give you some idea the tuning that went into just getting the rotation characteristics absolutely spot on dragged on over months of revised ELAC simulations.

I am always happy to answer questions via pm re the Bus and Boeing as its about "sharing" to improve knowledge just as i have for two decades in my airline and another decade prior to that in GA.

In a few weeks i will be on a stream doing a comparison of Airbus and Boeing emergency procedures and how the philosophies of them vary in similar emergency scenarios. Again for free to help the community learn and share some of our knowledge on a very complex subject on two very different aircraft A321 and B777.

Ill pop a video in here just to add to what i raised re AP pitch authority and just how poor the Airbus is at following path at various times. The first is while configuring to fly an RNP AR where the AP lacks the extra G authority provided in GS ie flying an ILS. This is not a "sometimes thing" its an every flight thing. You can see immediately after the Flap 2 call what happens to the Vdev indicator as the aircraft balloons up climbing away from the desired path. You wont see the Fenix do this period along with other "features" Airbus popped into the family!

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Webposting/i-WRQKXF7/0/KrkRTJQzMKpwd4VSNqWbKvX5fXR9HnfmnpfCBprh5/1920/IMG_7255-1920.mp4

One more at showing even in Expedite mode which has 100% more G authority than in managed or open descent. it can never keep up with the increasing speed on an expedite descent. Having done a couple of hundred of these this is how it lags on EVERY single one speed lagging behind target never really nudging 0.79 only getting to the magenta target when it hits 340kts. Yes the dreaded Expedite mode feared by Airbus pilots worldwide who are happy to sit at 338kts in a managed descent speed surfing up at the top of the speed window  but not at 340 with double the AP pitch authority to assist in the event of a wind change.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Webposting/i-ZKFtXBh/0/MPfj2bT7tZnQFn9tShjh7JrWCQtmjkWsTbfzrqFkQ/1920/IMG_9579-1920.mp4

Enjoy your Buses what ever you choose to fly just know we have invested a huge amount of effort to get the FSlabs to have and show as much of the Airbus's true character 99% great but sometimes. To be able to share that is why we do it for NOTHING.

Now wheres my Concorde...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 20241 yr by DEHowie