32 minutes ago, TrafficPilot said:

The C-42 is a light aircraft made by Ikarus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikarus_C42

Re TCAS I think you may have misunderstood my post. I know what TCAS is and how it works but in relationship to this collision TCAS alerts would have been inhibited at this stage of approach. I believe they may have received a "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC" VISUAL alert but no VERBAL alert as they were below 500ft. We'll find out when they recover the "black boxes".

The issue I have concerns TCAS and this particular unfortunate case. The only inhibiting factor is related to a Resolution Advisory (RA) situation regarding commands to initiate CLIMB, CLIMB or DESCEND, DESCEND above 1,000 feet (not this case). There is an aural alert in both instances, and the coloring of the white diamond changes to an amber dot for Traffic Advisory (TA), and the amber dot changes to a red square under RA conditions. Other than that, I'm okay, and if there is any misunderstanding, I apologize. 

51 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Spoken like someone who never lived in the Washington D.C. area. 😄 I lived in Arlington for 8 years. 

Any time there's an incident involving that airport the media is all over the story proclaiming DCA to be one of the most dangerous airports in the world. We don't believe these reports any more than we believe anything else mainstream media says. If it's not obvious, there is some politics involved concerning Dulles and it's never been pretty.

No, never lived anywhere near there, and I never will.

The fact remains that it is a relatively dangerous airport simply by virtue of it's having short runways and being in a crowded urban area, not to mention the frequently heavy air traffic in the area.  I'll certainly never fly there.

This latest incident just points up how dangerous it really is.

I'm sure the swamp will keep it running at all costs, and if they eventually have to due to safety risks, the overlords there will happily borrow and spend a few gazillion on a brand new, shiny airport for themselves and their beneficiaries.

That will be about all from me on the subject.

Dave

Staffing at air control tower was ‘not normal,' according to FAA report

" The controller who was handling helicopters Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from the airport runways, the Times reported. Those assignments are typically assigned to two controllers. "

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/military-helicopter-crash-dc-airport

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

3. DCA should have been closed years ago.  It is an old airport with very short, dangerous runways in a very urban and congested area.  My guess is that there are too many "consulting" firm executives and politicians who like to use it for their luxury jet travel, so it stays open.  All DC traffic should go to Dulles or Baltimore.

Reading through these comments in this thread this one I agree with the most. Time for a redevelopment that land can be put to better use

I’m going to stick my neck out and get a little political and maybe I’ll get it chopped off. In 1981 PATCO the Professional Air Traffic Controller Organization called a strike against the FAA after contract negotiations failed. Ronald Reagan fired about three fourths of the controller work force because it was illegal for federal employees to strike. Fair enough. The contract we worked under at the time had stipulations of two hour position rotation, break frequencies , meal breaks to name a few rules the agency agreed to. More often then not I spent an entire eight hour shift on the same position with no break and ate my packed lunch on position due to lack of fully rated journeymen controllers and management unwilling to pay overtime. And not unusual to be working combined positions. 
Granted, Lake Charles was not ORD or JFK but we were a pretty busy little airport with a good deal of G.A. Traffic of the petrochemical industry, some commercial and a variety of everything making us a level three TRACAB out of then five levels based on volume. This was the state of things in most facilities at that time and from what I see and hear not much has changed. Just as then there will be talking heads and experts on the entertainment media disguised as news for a day or two and then move on to the next ratings bait issue. In the meantime the galley slaves will continue to row the boat until they quit, retire or go out on a medical.

In 1981 Reagan rode tall politically by walking over  the carcasses of our careers, message received to this day. Know your place and stay there. 

The humans beyond the technical analysis.

 

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

No, never lived anywhere near [Washington D.C.], and I never will.

It was pretty cool in the bicentennial year of 1976. I was just starting my computer programming career in the Pentagon. I even saw Jimmy Carter in person. There was something in the air: you just knew you were in the seat of power. And the museums!  

However, having moved back to Texas in 1984, I won't be moving back. 🙂 

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

This latest incident just points up how dangerous it really is.

This latest incident shows just how much sway the media has over pubic opinion. We've seen it before. The first thing I asked my wife (who watches TV, I don't) was if they were already saying it was one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Of course, they were. Her comments, as a long time NCO's wife, aren't suitable for reproduction here.

I've flown through both Reagan and Dulles, and I prefer Reagan. 

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

I'm sure the swamp will keep it running at all costs

It ain't just The Swamp that prefers the closer airport. In fact, given the politics of the two airports, I wouldn't be surprised if the "official" stance of The Swamp would be to close DCA, while their personal preference would be to keep it open.

Remember what happened to Meigs.

1 hour ago, Patco Lch said:

Just as then there will be talking heads and experts on the entertainment media disguised as news for a day or two and then move on to the next ratings bait issue.

Thanks to Vic for the insight into the air traffic control situation in the Reagan era.

Hook

5 hours ago, kangoat said:

It's also sounding like ATC was short staffed at the time too.

That is absolutely correct. FAA has had trouble getting enough people hired, trained, and finally ready to assume work.  The FAA Academy acts as the great filter of course, resulting in a rather high attrition rate.  Even for successful graduates however, it will take years of OJT experience before one is ready for posting at high traffic positions.

As a UK state controller for 42 years , I remember the shock of the Regan edict. My colleagues and I were appalled.

Can I just make a couple of points here ... staff shortages are world wide and I don't see it being relevant given the facts as revealed.

However , the operation of helicopters doesn't fit well with the systems I'm used to. In my world I would have been required to apply separation visually or by applying deemers.

Deemers being a version of geographical separation approved by our regulator.  In any event, if I were the tower controller with a radar feed , I would have been screaming "Avoiding Action" to the helicopter.

Oh the fact that both aircraft were controlled by one controller should have made life easier.. less coordination.

From my perspective this appears to be a Systemic Failure of Airspace design and regulation. 

My thoughts are with the controller and the families involved.

I have been flying to KDCA for years as a pilot (a long time ago), quite often by night, and was always nervous about the whole region with its numerous restricted areas, heavy traffic (including GA), many visual approaches (no GPS RNAV at that time), and pilot visual separations which are never safe at night over a heavily urban and brightly lit area, since in a busy area as this one, it can lead to dramatic mistakes.

It seems to me that in a tricky environment, the controller should never ever rely on a "visual" separation especially at night regardless of whether it is or not VMC, in that specific case, the "construction" of the drama started with:

1. The change to RWY 33 when the AA plane was already on its approach for RWY 01, presumably to clear RWY 01 for heavy departing traffic, adding last minute workload to the AA crew, the RNAV VGF is at IDTEK at 500 ft before getting over the Potomac, when they should focus on the final approach leg and not worry about conflicting traffic.
2. Relying on pilot visual separation (pilot of military helicopter only) on a potentially conflicting trajectory with arriving traffic. Had the controller issued an immediate instruction to change the heading of the helicopter, 67 people would be happily alive today...

We are always more intelligent after, but the reality is stubborn and does not like to be ignored.

Edited January 31, 20251 yr by Bernard Ducret

12 hours ago, dave2013 said:

3. DCA should have been closed years ago.  It is an old airport with very short, dangerous runways in a very urban and congested area.  My guess is that there are too many "consulting" firm executives and politicians who like to use it for their luxury jet travel, so it stays open.  All DC traffic should go to Dulles or Baltimore.

Dave

I guess I'm sort of an inner city airportophile, if there's even such a term. I'm often near Taipei's Songshan airport, and it's just cool watching planes coming in over a crowded city area. It's also very cool landing at a busy airport in a large city coming in from halfway around the world (even with a stopover). And then if you don't have a lot of heavy luggage, just walking out the terminal on foot, crossing the street and instantly being right there in the middle of the city. But definitely some people also want to get rid of it and just use the much larger outlying Taoyuan airport instead, a bit like DCA and IAD.

Maybe with old age I'm becoming more cynical. Every single car accident is avoidable, but they happen every day. Airliner accidents don't occur so frequently, but it somehow seems regardless of what we do they're goinng to happen from time to time. Of course we should learn from past mistakes. Yes, it must be awful to be a controller feeling responsibility in a case like this. Even if you're like a train driver and somebody jumps on the tracks in front of you and you pull the emergency brake immediately, but it's futile, there was nothing you could do, you'll be burdened with a feeling of guilt.

One might think especially at night if you're in VMC it'd be easy to visually spot traffic since it's easy to see their lights, but then I guess it also depends on the cacophony of lights all around you. Perhaps fewer but larger airports at the edge of urban areas, and maybe also fewer flights craming more people into larger planes would be better. That combined with much stricter separation procedures (simply no more messing around in Class B airpsace).

But I can't help it, I do like airports inside of cities. Hong Kong used to have Kai Tak. Berlin used to have Tempelhof, and even Tegel was fairly central. I've been through New York's La Guardia, Shanghai's Hongqiao. Fukuoka, Japan is also pretty much surrounded by city areas, where you can just exit the terminal on foot, cross the street, and be in a sort of neighborhood area with regualar city streets, restaurants, convenience stores etc. A bit like central train stations in cities like London, Shanghai, or New York, just that it's an airport terminal where you can jet off to any destination worldwide and be there within 24 hours.

14 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

They need to look at their procedures. Reading the comments on the PPRUNE site several non-US pilots are very critical of ATC over there,

Ive said numerous times on here, when I first started out in flight ops one of my admin jobs was to file away and collate ASR's  (air safety reports) done by flight crew. 

Of all the ASRS that came in the majoroty of them were OVERWELMINGLY about the standard of ATC in America, and in particular the Americans obession with changing runways and visual approaches.  Sure we mainly only flew to the USA but you never had any in about the standard of ATC in say Dubai or South Africa.

It was an accident waiting to happen.  How theyve never had an accident in JFK is beyond me. Nearly all the ASRS i had to file away were about JFK, changing runways, visual approaches and the standard of ATC in JFK and ORD

Edited January 31, 20251 yr by fluffyflops

3 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

How they’ve never had an accident in JFK is beyond me

I’ve only flown in once back in 1998 as a passenger on Delta and all was fine. But I have a DVD of BA Concorde operations with cameras in the flight deck. Recorded in 1996.

ATC gave priority to the BA Concorde for landing which was appreciated. But the speed they deliver instructions seemed far too fast especially when you consider English is not the first language of many crews.

Edited January 31, 20251 yr by Ray Proudfoot
Spelling

If I might add one side effect of the PATCO strike was the impression it made on the Soviet bosses of the day. One said later it caused them to realize they were dealing with a President who meant what he said. I interpret that as ;if this old man is this crazy no telling what he might do. This had them quite nervous and on occasions, unknown to the U.S we came within a trigger pull of nuclear war. 
The Soviets thought an attack was eminent during the Able Archer war games, the KAL007 incident and took his loose rhetoric very seriously like the hot Mike radio incident when he stated “ladies and gentlemen we have declared war on Russia and begin bombing in five minutes.” 
I apologize for getting off topic in this somber thread and mean no disrespect towards this tragedy. It’s just that Air Traffic Control discussions stir up memories of what was the worst time of my life and that includes my time in Vietnam Nam. I guess that’s one reason I seldom use ATC when I sim.

One of the best possible explanations I have heard at the beginning of this video, including the heli pilot being focused on the wrong airplane lights.

 

Edited January 31, 20251 yr by The Flight Level