1 hour ago, GoranM said:

I had the exact same thing said to me. As proficient a pilot that Rod Machado is, along with the Kings, his instructional series didn’t even scratch the surface of what piloting really is about. 

The problem with using flight simulators is that those who go on to do real flight training often end up taking their bad habit of staring at the instruments too much with them.

I had this exact problem as well when I did lessons after using FSX many years ago. My instructor had to keep telling me to look out the window instead of at the dials when doing the usual basic tasks such as, turns, straight-and-level, ascending/descesnding etc. Whilst I knew exactly what all the dials were telling me, I had 0 sense of what it actually felt like to fly an aircraft (and it's totally different), e.g. You can feel the need to use the rudder or if you're climbing/descending too fast, which you can't in a sim.

Despite our sims looking way more realistic these days, it hasn't changed at all in this sense. It's good for getting familiar and learning some theory, but that's about it. It's probably also super useful for learning the complex cockpits and procedures for airliners as well

 

 

41 minutes ago, tonywob said:

The problem with using flight simulators is that those who go on to do real flight training often end up taking their bad habit of staring at the instruments too much with them.

I heard that many times. 

The thing is, maybe it doesn't apply to everybody ? We don't fly our sims with our eye riveted to the 2D panels occupying 90% of the screeen, if I'm not mistaken...

Even in the old sims I didn't spend my time watching the instruments, excepted in a liner maybe ?... It's even more true since I switched to VR. Now watch the instruments even less often 😄

Of course I have never piloted a real aircraft. The only time I took control of an "aircraft", it was actually during a glider initiation flight. And yes, the instructor asked me if I had any experience with piloting and when I replied about the simulators (FS9 and FSX at that time), he laughed at me, and told me to forget everything I knew because it had "nothing in common with the real world". Lol...

Once in flight he actually gave me the controls for a few minutes to perform some ridge soaring alongside some local hill. And guess what ? It was just like in the sim. I was just watching my airspeed and vario from time to time, but the behavior or the glider was VERY SIMILAR to the one in the sim. Performance varied of course, but the important things, like the reactions, the need to control the yaw, the turbulences etc... there was nothing new or surprising compared to the sim. Ah yes, something was different: in real world, the controls are much better than my poor hardware at home, and everything looked much better and clearer than they did on my poor 17" screen of the time. And since I didn't have a trackIR or a VR headset, it was also much easier to look around, compared to the simulator. I spent the flight refraining to ask him "so, where's the difference then ?".

Don't get me wrong, I was fully aware that the behavior was probably going to be very different from the sim in various extreme cases. And yes, I could feel all the vibrations and G's that I couldn't feel in the sim. But the comment from that instructor about simulators was completely wrong. I have no doubt that the simulator can give bad habits, of course. But the instructors telling that everything is wrong and that you should forget everything you learned from the simulators should fly over cultivated fields and drop a bit of that fertilizer they are full of 🙂

 

59 minutes ago, tonywob said:

The problem with using flight simulators is that those who go on to do real flight training often end up taking their bad habit of staring at the instruments too much with them.

I had this exact problem as well when I did lessons after using FSX many years ago. My instructor had to keep telling me to look out the window instead of at the dials when doing the usual basic tasks such as, turns, straight-and-level, ascending/descesnding etc. Whilst I knew exactly what all the dials were telling me, I had 0 sense of what it actually felt like to fly an aircraft (and it's totally different), e.g. You can feel the need to use the rudder or if you're climbing/descending too fast, which you can't in a sim.

Despite our sims looking way more realistic these days, it hasn't changed at all in this sense. It's good for getting familiar and learning some theory, but that's about it. It's probably also super useful for learning the complex cockpits and procedures for airliners as well

 

 

Ah yes.  The old "Pick a reference point and focus on it instead of looking at the instruments" instruction.

I remember my first flight instructor got the piece of cardboard and put it over the instruments so I couldn't see them.  I felt completely lost the first time he did that.

14 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Ah yes.  The old "Pick a reference point and focus on it instead of looking at the instruments" instruction.

I remember my first flight instructor got the piece of cardboard and put it over the instruments so I couldn't see them.  I felt completely lost the first time he did that.

The thing about habits I find is that you think you'd be able to pick out that you're doing it but it's actually not that easy.

I totally knew about the stereotype that simmers are glued to instruments, and I vowed that I wasn't going to be one of those students. And yet the very first lesson I kept looking at the VSI constantly. Like without even thinking. I was so embarrassed because the guy would just tell me constantly to keep my eyes out. And yet the moment there's any kind of stress and you stop concentrating it's hard to catch yourself. 

Maybe it was just me though.

The only aircraft I've 'flown' was G-AYCK (an AIA Stampe SV.4C) on a promotional event at Shoreham. I was in the front seat, so the pilot couldn't see me staring intently at the instruments as I tried a few turns.

The pilot flew some aerobatics, loops and barrel rolls, great fun! 🙂

I did most of my RW flying in the 70's so even the idea of a home flight simulator didn't exist.  It's also the reason I love simming so much - as I get to continue "flying" past my time of affordability and also safety due to my age.  Also, I love that I get to practice more advanced techniques, learn about modern instrumentation (absolutely amazing what the systems of even smaller aircraft are capable of today).

Now, when I went through training there was certainly no issue with over-dependence on the instruments (as I had no previous experience).  Visual cues outside of the aircraft were used first followed by the "instrument scan".  You can do a lot with the visual cues (cowling above and below the horizon for instance) but no - flying by "feel" only takes you so far (and can also be deadly).  Unless I was flying under the hood, my main quick instrument checks were with the airspeed indicator and the turn and bank indicator (quick reference for coordination), and (of course) the altimeter.

Using flight sim to help teach people doing PPL training can be both good and bad.

Bad because it's a terrible platform to practice your stick and rudder skills. 

Good because its a cheap way to practice procedures, radiotelephony (VATSIM/IVAO) and pilotage/dead reckoning. Bonus points if the aircraft you train on is simulated in the sim (mine sadly wasnt).

This sounds no different than when I first started showing up at the race track after using the sim for training.  Lots of naysayers and comments about not being able to learn from a sim.  My how the last 10 years have changed that mindset. 

Now it's more along the lines of good luck finding someone who shows up WITHOUT using a sim first.  Its a 180 degree swing.  Most racers wouldn't dream of showing up without serious sim time first.  

I can see a tremendous amount of benefit of using a flightsim in conjunction with real world lessons.

I was fortunate, we learn negative target fixation very quickly in racing.  The car goes where your eyes go so we are taught almost immediately to keep your head and eyes up as far in front of you or in the direction you want to go as possible.  There are times your head and eyes are looking somewhere long before you physically move in that direction...  For example, the long swooping corners on F1 tracks, you aren't looking down at the track as you are "in " the corner, you are looking where you want to go, not where you are going...

Very close alignment to when I got in a plane for my first couple of lessons.  Instructor commented how I was significantly more prepared than most students they get... 

It's all about how you use the sim, mimicking r/w habits and the value you individually place in it.  

As for MSFS being used, P3D was actually the one the military was using as they care much less about graphics and much more about procedures.  Nothing new to using a sim to teach people but for some reason certain people act like none of this existed until 2024....  Ironically, the military would probably be the LAST to use MSFS due to it's cloud dependencies.  It's not available in Fedramp cloud or Air Gapped...

 

 

Edited June 11, 2025Jun 11 by psolk

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/photo/f35-training/F-35-FMS-masthead-2-lowres.mp4

 

Was never used at my flying school, PC sims teach bad habits for basic VFR especially instrument staring vice keeping a good lookout

4 hours ago, tonywob said:

The problem with using flight simulators is that those who go on to do real flight training often end up taking their bad habit of staring at the instruments too much with them.

 

This is problem is only exists if person using flight sim on his/her own. If flight sim is integrated approach of training syllabus you won't get bad habits because it will be guided by aviation professional. 

3 hours ago, GoranM said:

Ah yes.  The old "Pick a reference point and focus on it instead of looking at the instruments" instruction.

I remember my first flight instructor got the piece of cardboard and put it over the instruments so I couldn't see them.  I felt completely lost the first time he did that.

This is true only for  initial training. When you learn how to fly instrument you will only be looking at instruments, scan them and cross check.  That sim can teach  you beautifully 

5 hours ago, tonywob said:

Whilst I knew exactly what all the dials were telling me, I had 0 sense of what it actually felt like to fly an aircraft (and it's totally different), e.g. You can feel the need to use the rudder or if you're climbing/descending too fast, which you can't in a sim.

Whenever the discussion goes to subtle or even less subtle differences between flight dynamics in the different flight sims it became clear to me it hardly matters because of exactly what you're saying.  And further this fact is probably why those using sims end up focusing too much on instruments as they're completely missing the feel piece.  

These old fuddy duddies will be in for a shock when they realise how much sim training is used in modern training of all shapes and colours.  Throw away your wizz-wheel and fumbling around trying to update nav logs with a pencil while being bumped around in turbulence. The world has already changed.  (although the ATPL exams are still prehistoric, preparing me terribly for the real world and more  for a career on the Boeing Stearman and Lockheed Tristar).  

During PPL in South Africa we had a sim hooked up to X-Plane 10, and I spend just as  much time in the sim as flying in real life with CPL ME/IR.  My scans are sharper and more natural using 2020 and the PMDG 737 every single night. At the sharp end though, people are not using commercial MSFS2024 but CAA approved bespoke simulators.   

Edited June 11, 2025Jun 11 by Langeveldt

I became a Pilot because of Flight Unlimited II. I believe that it was also why my nephew is a 737 Captain at AA. 

A sim can help motivate a person to become a Pilot, but it's mostly for entertainment purposes and not real world training.

There are FAA approved sims in most flight schools, but they come at a price and provide very little entertainment.

It's why I've been recommending popular sims to students for more than 2 decades.