@mistolip and others, 

I finally managed a full flight with BATC and the Fenix A320 on it's latest update for FS 2024.

Uneventful and pretty sound to me.

Not possible in the Inibuilds 321 LR... I don't say it's not my fault, but I couldn't make it work with that Airbus 😕

12 hours ago, cyyzrwy24 said:

Nah....some make big fuss about how 2020 should be deleted from PC and then open another thread how frustrating 2024 is....Not sure I get that....Go figure......

The point is that one expects MSFS to be the starting point for a new sim, therefore does not expect so many regressions. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.

Besides, certain aspects such as traffic nonsense at airports and demented ATC affect MSFS as well. I've never seen aircraft going backwards in MSFS, I give you that.

Daisies and pebbles are nice, but I really expected improvements on these areas after so many years. 

They should've made sure to have done a solid QC pass on the game before releasing. 

Also, there's plenty of regressions, issues that were fixed in FS2020 that are still present in FS2024, because they couldn't be bothered to port their fixes. As Fuzzy said above, this is just an iteration that was meant to improve FS2020, not start over. They should also have had the SDK ready for 3rd parties to have enough time to port over their products. Plenty of mods and planes we were hoping to fly at launch that are still not available, not to mention the complete absence of the market place. Not to mention the absence of a good hotfixing strategy, when they knew how buggy they are releasing this game (or maybe they didn't for the reason i am listing next). One hotfix in 2 weeks and that's it ? For these reasons, it's a very poor launch.

The more I spend time with it, it's also more clear that the people at MS/Asobo just don't use their own product. Just the way some things are done against the grain, in UI, Flow, how airplanes are missing default simbrief integration, how Tobii Eye (besides the fact that it crashes when trying to configure) is configured out of the box in the most (i imagine) default way possible (which is nausseating), how there are plenty of blatant visual issues that were fixed in FS2020 but present again in FS2024 (like night illumination of cities with the meh sepia illumination on empty fields, or the plane's lighting at night being outright broken in many planes), the planes that were present and working fine in FS2020, having basic things broken in FS2024 (XCub in Fs2024 being one example). They have great technical skills, quite clearly from how the sim looks and what they manage to do with automation, but they absolutely do not play this game as a simmer at home, etc. . Which explains a lot of what we're seeing.

For now, I'm back to FS2020. I'll wait for them to fix night lighting, Tobii Eye and for 3rd parties to port over the most wanted mods, after which I think it's going to be great. But that's going to be another 1-2-3 months at least until it's in a good enough state. 

3 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

.....certain aspects such as traffic nonsense at airports and demented ATC affect MSFS as well. I've never seen aircraft going backwards in MSFS, I give you that.

Daisies and pebbles are nice, but I really expected improvements on these areas after so many years. 

 

This is right Mr Fuzzy. Remember in 2020 when we had aircraft that would turn left and bank right? Uggggh! It took them ages, but it was eventually fixed and now AI is mostly enjoyable to watch in MS2020.  So it seems it starts again from scratch in MS2024.  A backwards flying airplane is like a large billboard advertisement for Regressions 'r' Us !! If 2020 was anything to go by, I imagine it will take them a while to fix these things since they will have a low priority against their flagship but buggy Career mode and of course misplaced daisies and pebbles. 

 I am being a bit facetious with that last comment but the fact is many of us expected an significant improvement in the Flight Simulator from FS2020 that met the purity of a flight simulator where MS2020 was badly bereft of ie ,  in simulating clouds, an acceptable ATC solution and realistic wx effects etc. And, we expected most of this out of the gate (notwithstanding stretched servers at release). We didn't get any of it. (Put's hand up. I don't have 2024 so my take on clouds is from some who reported no change or even worse. I see the volcanic ash clouds still exist. Some have said clouds have improved immensely.)  It all sounds like the 20 page cloud topics we had in MSFS 2020, it's so subjective. I'm waiting for the majority to say, wow, the cloud modelling is brilliant then I'll know we've moved forward.       

Don't get me wrong. I am enthused about where this double world of MS can take us. That I can potentially climb up a beautifully modelled Acacia tree and tickle a giraffe under the chin with a daisy, or drive my Ranger through some rugged terrain to shoot deer (ok take photos of them,) or role play as a passenger on a VIP jet, imagining I have just won lotto.   Space...the new frontier  etc etc. The mind boggles.  I'm not serious all the time. Like @andy1252, I'll fly Harry Potters Anglia around a PG London just because I can. But, when I am serious, I expect the Flight Simulator to be so too.   

Now, I know many have listed the improvements for Flight Simulation in MSFS2024 including: (this is not my list, it was compiled by someone else with far more knowledge than me). 

- improved flight dynamics and CFD, improved aircraft creation/development tools
- much improved and revamped ground handling and related physics, water physics
- much improved ground details (which also goes hand in hand with the ground physics above)
- new atmospheric photometric lighting engine, ray-traced cockpit lighting
- default birds like the ini A330, ini A321LR etc which by all accounts are of considerable fidelity for default, along with the various other default birds that have improved FMs/systems/avionics/etc
- improved rendering of clouds, clouds density, clouds lighting, new cloud types, etc
- 24hr historical snapshot of the MSFS world (not just all the MSFS weather served for the past 24 hrs but also traffic/other data)
- seasons, 3D trees, multiple diverse biomes
- a default capable and complex flight planner, LIDO charts, etc
- native dx12 support
- better multi-threading
- aviation activities, and related new physics (soft-body, load carrying, etc) and interaction with flight dynamics
- an already payware-grade avionics suite default in 2020 further improved in 2024.. and new Primus Epic 2 & Universal UNS-1
- new default EFB, improved default systems, wear and tear
- more and diverse type of AI traffic aircraft types and better livery matching
- thin client

But, I'm not sure all of these 'improvements are genuine improvements to the Flight Simulator genre'. I have bolded those that unquestionable are,  I have italicized those that must invariable make the sim run better and I have underlined those for whom the jury is still out in reaching any sort of verdict other than guilty. Many of the others related to visualizations and ground/water effects are certainly helpful to our VFR, helo and bush pilots, but they need ATC, acceptable clouds and working AI traffic in real life too.      

But most of the other stuff is no real improvement to the pure Flight Sim genre when I'm in a Cessna at 5000' after a missed approached on the East Coast of the US in appalling wx and encroaching darkness , my confidence shaken that my alternates were too close and affected by the same wx, and I'm approaching bingo fuel.  I need help from ATC, not a smelly giraffe trying to wrap its tongue around my head. At least I have some pebbles I can throw at it! 

So what is my point. That MS is using the Flight Simulator genre as a leading experiment in testing their gaming technologies with Asobo as a reasonably renowned games studio leading that push.  The aviation stuff including default aircraft , avionics etc is there of course,  but it's further down the list and simply contracted out. I expect ATC will be eventually be too. Goodness knows what will happen with AI traffic. 

We also know this is about making money for MS through the Career mode and the Marketplace and is justified as a bringing on a new set of younger gamers and inviting them to consider aviation as a career. Objectively, MSFS works in this regard. I had a young 10 year old boy visiting my wife and I recently,  with his Mum and Dad, none of whom I had met before, and this young man took to the flight simulator and by the time we prized his sweat covered fingers from the Thrustmaster yoke, he was begging his Dad to buy it!    

It's as though to some extent Asobo are abrigating some of their responsibilities to pure flight simulation in favour of advancing pure gaming technologies but relying on 3PD and contractors to create the flight simulator parts and encouraging them into the Marketplace. 

Perhaps the best indication of all this is @Abriael whose extremely supportive comments regarding PMDG were stickied below RSR's: 

"Some still have a big chip on their shoulder because Microsoft broke their little walled garden of flight simulation by making it available to a much wider audience".  

That's absolutely correct.  They have broken the 'walled garden of flight simulation' by making this an Xbox title and as a priority, creating a game that appeals to gamers even though some are saying the challenges are too hard!!

As Scotty in Star Trek would say..." Its a flight Simulator Jim, but not as we know it!". 

40 minutes ago, Lord Farringdon said:

Its a flight Simulator Jim, but not as we know i

Great write up, I'm with you on most points. Except I can't understand people who say they are disappointed that 2024 is not more realistic as a sim than 2020. From all the pre release hype it was clear the market was not the sim /aviation purist. 

I'd call 2024 a 'flight simulator simulator'. 

6 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

Daisies and pebbles are nice

They are, plus the many other improvements you chose not to mention.

3 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

From all the pre release hype it was clear the market was not the sim /aviation purist.

Adding features for the gamer market does not take away from the simulator aspects of the title.

1 hour ago, sloppysmusic said:

sim /aviation purist

Sim/aviation purists only exist in there own heads. Pretty hard to market those kind of people.

2 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

This is right Mr Fuzzy. Remember in 2020 when we had aircraft that would turn left and bank right? Uggggh! It took them ages, but it was eventually fixed and now AI is mostly enjoyable to watch in MS2020......

Watching the AI planes lift off the ground in MSFS 2020 is a good illustration of just how far behind P3D this simulator is where AI plane animation is concerned. I would also prefer to see the AI planes roll down slopes, rather than step down

2 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

- improved flight dynamics and CFD
- much improved and revamped ground handling and related physics
- water physics (think float planes)
- much improved ground details (which also goes hand in hand with the ground physics above)
- default birds like the ini A330, ini A321LR etc which by all accounts are of considerable fidelity for default, along with the various other default birds that have improved FMs/systems/avionics/etc
- improved rendering of clouds, clouds density, clouds lighting, new cloud types, etc
- 24hr historical snapshot of the MSFS world (not just all the MSFS weather served for the past 24 hrs but also traffic/other data)
- a default capable and complex flight planner, LIDO charts, etc
- aviation activities, and related new physics (soft-body, load carrying, etc) and interaction with flight dynamics
- an already payware-grade avionics suite default in 2020 further improved in 2024.. and new Primus Epic 2 & Universal UNS-1
- new default EFB, improved default systems, wear and tear

All of these items are "genuine improvements to the Flight Simulator genre".
How people rank them in terms of importance is up to personal preference. Nonetheless, these are all worthy advancements above and beyond what we have in MSFS20.

That's not to say MSFS24 could not and should not have been released in a better state. And I am surprised by how much doesn't work / has regressed from the current build of MSFS20.

Yet, the near constant bashing by some here and on other social media that 'there is nothing noteworthy to justify a new sim' or that 'it's just for gamers' really ought to stop. The list of new features shows the sim has real improvements and is catered just as much to the sim purists.

3 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

 I am being a bit facetious with that last comment but the fact is many of us expected an significant improvement in the Flight Simulator from FS2020 that met the purity of a flight simulator where MS2020 was badly bereft of ie ,  in simulating clouds, an acceptable ATC solution and realistic wx effects etc. And, we expected most of this out of the gate (notwithstanding stretched servers at release). We didn't get any of it. (Put's hand up. I don't have 2024 so my take on clouds is from some who reported no change or even worse. I see the volcanic ash clouds still exist. Some have said clouds have improved immensely.)  
.....
But, I'm not sure all of these 'improvements are genuine improvements to the Flight Simulator genre'. I have bolded those that unquestionable are,  I have italicized those that must invariable make the sim run better and I have underlined those for whom the jury is still out in reaching any sort of verdict other than guilty. Many of the others related to visualizations and ground/water effects are certainly helpful to our VFR, helo and bush pilots, but they need ATC, acceptable clouds and working AI traffic in real life too. 
.....
It's as though to some extent Asobo are abrigating some of their responsibilities to pure flight simulation in favour of advancing pure gaming technologies but relying on 3PD and contractors to create the flight simulator parts and encouraging them into the Marketplace. 
.....     
So what is my point. That MS is using the Flight Simulator genre as a leading experiment in testing their gaming technologies with Asobo as a reasonably renowned games studio leading that push.  The aviation stuff including default aircraft , avionics etc is there of course,  but it's further down the list and simply contracted out. I expect ATC will be eventually be too. Goodness knows what will happen with AI traffic. 

I'll have to disagree with some of the above.. Clouds in general definitely do have noticeable improvement over 2020, i.e. proper density as opposed to the always-opaque in 2020, new cloud types, lighting in clouds, etc. Some might feel there isn't much of a change from 2020, but the majority I'm seeing say there definitely are improvements.

And yes MS/Asobo are working with 3rd party devs especially to deliver various default aircraft of considerable fidelity (i.e. iniBuilds), but to say "It's as though to some extent Asobo are abrigating some of their responsibilities to pure flight simulation in favour of advancing pure gaming technologies but relying on 3PD and contractors to create the flight simulator parts" is simply being naive at best or disingenuous at worst 🙂 

Quite obviously Asobo/WT are heavily invested in the "core flight simulation" aspects of the sim.. 3rd party devs are doing add-on aircraft and sceneries etc but that's about it, they're *not* responsible for core sim stuff. Asobo/WT are, as they rightfully should be, responsible for and developing:
- the core flight dynamics engine and framework for handling all types of flying from airliners to GA to gliders to helis etc... along with the aircraft development tools
- the ground and water handling/physics system (and their efforts to increase the details of the ground went hand in hand in with being able to simulate the physics of the aircraft wheels on various surfaces, and this is important to all types of flying: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/656780-why-i-simply-cant-go-back-to-msfs-2020-land/#findComment-5265074). After simulating the wheels as single points in 2020 and prior MS flight sims, 2024 finally has them simulated as 3D structures with flex, grip, and various other characteristics that feed into much better ground handling and ground<->air transition physics.
- the weather system
- avionics and systems (I'll repeat again just how unprecedented it is that the default avionics fidelity are equal to and in most case higher than payware)
- default aircraft of higher-than-normal fidelity by WT/Asobo: Citation Longitude, SR22, CJ4, C172, 737 Max, etc
- the atmospheric lighting engine
- the list goes on ...

Just because ATC etc is not up to par yet, or another aspect is yet to be improved, does *not* then mean they're *only* focusing on "gaming" stuff. They're able to walk and chew gum at the same time.. this "either/or" narrative that keeps getting pushed is a rather antiquated take which might've applied to previous sim platform developers who had a much smaller team, but no longer.
 

Edited December 2, 20241 yr by lwt1971

I'll give you a perfect example of why this is a frustrating experience for myself and why I put it down until Asobo pull their fingers out and fix stuff;
 

• Double-Click the desktop icon, 1 in 3 tries comes up with an error so I have to do it again. Not a big issue just a tad annoying.
• Get to the menu eventually (loading times improved) and set about going for a Free Flight.
• ...but the Clouds don't load on the World Map so I have to check Windy.com to see where is nice and sunny to fly with light clouds and no nonsense strong winds!
• I load into the Airport Cold & Dark all set for the walk around in VR
• Having used Legacy Mode since forever with 2020 I go to remove the Chocks, but wait, with an Xbox Controller the only way to remove chocks/covers is in Lock Mode with the ridiculous blue flashing nonsense, so I have to go into the Menu to change that, return to the game remove everything and enter the aircraft, only to return to the menu to change BACK to Legacy Mode to hide that ridiculous blue flashing nonsense.
• ...but now the Mouse won't interact with anything as there's a VR bug whereby if you go into the Menu then back to your plane it point blank stops working entirely...so I have to go in & out of the Menu until it works again...
• Right so now the mouse has started working again I'll bring up the Toolbar, oh no wait I need to position the mouse in the area the Toolbar resides so that when I press the button bind for the toolbar it shows up randomly and when it does it's stretched and skewed and looks terrible but hey it "works!"
• I know I'll load up the EFB,.....oh no wait it 100% does not work in VR, can't even move the window, it's entirely broken.
• Now it's time to start up the aircraft, the mouse control on the buttons & switches and dials in VR is worse than in 2020 and that took some beating, you sometimes have to close one eye so you can click the correct button.
• Eventually begin taxiing, slight bit of rudder to compensate a side wind and....the rudders stuck....offensive initials not allowed!? oh yes the Mouse has "lost focus" of the MSFS24 Window on the desktop and it currently floating elsewhere meaning all control inputs are lost...
• I give up

That is a general flight in MSFS24 for me, sure the EFB I can live without (doesn't excuse the fact it should work) but the rest of it was a frustration EVERY - SINGLE - FLIGHT and that's why I've put it down until Jorg and his merry men fix what is a complete mess. So yes, there's a lot of new stuff to enjoy and look forward too, but right now, for me this Sim is not anywhere near "ready".

What me currently annoys most is the sheer number of airplanes coming with this sim (which would be actually good) but half of it, if not more, are just absolutely unusable at the moment because things like lights or retraction of landing gear do simply not work. NOT at ALL work. I mean, seriously? If you release your sim with 100 planes, I expect that at least the very BASIC functions are tested for properly function in a beta test, but obviously not. 

As I said already prior release of MSFS2020 and of course also prior release of 2024: why not concentrating on only 10-15 planes but making them all on a level like the A330? I mean, what is the use of 100 planes if 60 from them simply do not work? It is sooo ridiculous it drives me nuts each time I think about it. 

And the list of such things is endless. I really see the potential of this sim, but on the other hand it is almost overwhelming how much they completely messed up. Or should I say "impressive"? 😉 

On 12/1/2024 at 11:58 AM, History said:

You're far ahead. I just spent my previous weekend for setting up the controller. 

Whaha this made me almost wet my  👖

1 hour ago, AnkH said:

As I said already prior release of MSFS2020 and of course also prior release of 2024: why not concentrating on only 10-15 planes but making them all on a level like the A330? I mean, what is the use of 100 planes if 60 from them simply do not work?

It's sad but 100 crappy planes sell more than 15 study or semi-study level ones.

Also being able to see the pebbles and the flowers sells more than a working ATC. Not only because of the gamers who care more about the graphics than the simulation. Even simmers would unconsciously think "if they took the time to take care even of pebbles and daisies... all the more important aspects of the simulation must be in check".

As I said, Jorg is the greatest salesman of all times.