19 minutes ago, DavidP said:

No one is forcing you to buy it.

He didn't say they were, he was engaging in the conversation. 

PMDG to me is an overrated company, I always remember them as the go to add-on during the FSX days! Now, I don't really get excited, the ower just waffles on and there are developers who produce better these days. I think the names lives off the glory days of the past. (which isn't a bad thing for them at all) 

I am certainly not angry with them though, just indifferent. If they charge more now (?) and people still pay it, fair play to them. It is a business, make as much as you can in this capitalist world. 

Edited May 7, 20251 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

2 hours ago, jcomm said:

Yes, but AFAIK they charge for each engine variant, whereas PMDG offers all engine variants in the package...

I'm in the fence between going FF 772 or PMDG 772.

Been watching videos of both and trying to glimpse as much as I can from it, but it's difficult and depends a lot on how the youtubers do their job too...

Then I have the idea that the PMDG suffers from the lack of inertia typical of MSFS while the FF appears too sluggish (???).

The VNAV is still WIP and not fully functional in the FF too and, last but certainly not least, I would like to know how FF implements C*u.

I own the PMDG 773 for FS 2020 but since I haven't been flying it for quite a long time I don't exactly recall what I tested regarding C*u implementation, but I recall that it was better than in P3D.

The FF engine thing is all the engines for every variant they release, so it's a pack you only buy once

That means it isn't that great value if you only want the base -200 but if your do want to pick up the rest as they're released it's not bad.

Edited May 7, 20251 yr by Matchstick

1 hour ago, sdirand said:

It would be interresting to see the sales pictures compared to PMDG. Does PMDG sold more 737 than Fenix sold A32X?

PMDG can count on the Xbox market, something Fenix can't.

It seems certain PMDG have out sold Fenix. They're available through the Marketplace and (I might be dreaming this) I'm pretty sure Mathjis has said in the past 45% of their sales are on Xbox.

The Neo from Fenix? Whatever they charge, I think they'll be pricing it with FSLabs in mind.

Competition is good!

39 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

just indifferent.

Pretty much my take. As a non-pilot (but still huge buyer of aircraft of all types) I'm perfectly happy with the Captain SIm 777. I've got the PMDG 737-6 & -7 but I'm not a fan of the 777 anyway, for me it's a boring looking aircraft. If PMDG came up with a VC-10, Trident or any one of a number of older, more interesting aircraft, I'd be happy to give them their 70 bucks for a copy.

I mean you can be critical towards someone you still think is relatively good, just because you think he could be much better. That‘s not a contradiction. I don‘t understand why that is so hard to get.

Personally I will buy every PMDG airliner because I know it‘s solidly good and still I wish it was much better / more modern. Only when/if someone else does a 777/747 (for the 737 we already have the iFly as a strong competitor) this would actually affect purchase decisions. Until then it will be exactly like that: Hate on PMDG yet still buy their products.

 

10 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

just because there's no other options does not mean there's a "monopoly"

Technically and following the economic definition sure, the market conditions do not prevent anyone else and I’m sure PMDG isn’t doing monopolistic behaviour.

but as a practical matter as a user, it’s a monopoly because there are no other options and my point is simply that PMDG doesn’t need to change pricing because they have no competition. So they are doing what a smart business does and maximizing revenue by pricing at what they feel the market can bear. And it works for them so why change.

As a user, I hope someone makes a Boeing 73/77 family which is like 80% of PMDG quality for let’s say 60% of the price.. I’d buy it  

 

Anybody asking questions on price should just do the math and logistics.

Time is the cost of development and I use UK development as an example. This is very generic but a single person UK developer would expect to work for around £20-£30ph because yes developers must eat, pay their bills and live. A 2 year development cycle for example would therefore cost around £115,000 per person developer (£30 x 37 hours x 52weeks x 2 years) and that's assuming the developer works full time.

Ignoring other costs that means £115,000 of sales are required just to break even. If that project projected to sell 1,000 copies then the price would have to be at least £115 ($150) per copy or there's no point. Add another developer to the team and the price must double or the number of copies sold must double. Aircraft development is also multifaceted which means more cost, a software developer for example is highly unlikely to be a competent 3D modeller but for an aircraft you need both!

Development is a seriously risky business because the development cycles are long and many developers work projects with zero cashflow so often they can't work on a project full time. Those that do almost always do presales to finance development. MSFS changed this considerably from the P3D days because the market is much larger.

It's actually a fact that PMDG products are cheaper. I just checked and 5 years ago and I paid $220 for two 777 variants for P3D. The 777-300ER for MSFS meanwhile is $75 and the 777-200ER is $77 so whichever way you cut it that's half price. If you consider the crazy inflation that has occurred between those two periods (2020 vs 2025) then that's a considerable improvement!

I think some should therefore just note that without money there is no flight sim development. Comparing each developer is self-defeative because each developer is different, operating in different countries and conditions. Just be glad that they exist.

Edited May 7, 20251 yr by G MIDY

Simply divide hours used by cost to determine its value to you.  Thats what this price game boils down to.

A bottle of fermented grape juice cost £30 in a restaurant the other night, and lasted about 1/2 hour.

The cost of FS add-ons that provide many hours of entertainment is piddly by comparison.

 

1 hour ago, G MIDY said:

Anybody asking questions on price should just do the math and logistics.

Time is the cost of development and I use UK development as an example. This is very generic but a single person UK developer would expect to work for around £20-£30ph because yes developers must eat, pay their bills and live. A 2 year development cycle for example would therefore cost around £115,000 per person developer (£30 x 37 hours x 52weeks x 2 years) and that's assuming the developer works full time.

Ignoring other costs that means £115,000 of sales are required just to break even. If that project projected to sell 1,000 copies then the price would have to be at least £115 ($150) per copy or there's no point. Add another developer to the team and the price must double or the number of copies sold must double. Aircraft development is also multifaceted which means more cost, a software developer for example is highly unlikely to be a competent 3D modeller but for an aircraft you need both!

Development is a seriously risky business because the development cycles are long and many developers work projects with zero cashflow so often they can't work on a project full time. Those that do almost always do presales to finance development. MSFS changed this considerably from the P3D days because the market is much larger.

It's actually a fact that PMDG products are cheaper. I just checked and 5 years ago and I paid $220 for two 777 variants for P3D. The 777-300ER for MSFS meanwhile is $75 and the 777-200ER is $77 so whichever way you cut it that's half price. If you consider the crazy inflation that has occurred between those two periods (2020 vs 2025) then that's a considerable improvement!

I think some should therefore just note that without money there is no flight sim development. Comparing each developer is self-defeative because each developer is different, operating in different countries and conditions. Just be glad that they exist.

Agreed with you on costs. For example, let’s say the avg computer programmer makes about $70k usd in the uk, in the US, that same programmer may be making about $100k so all that adds up. Of course there are more operational costs that factor into this as well. Note that for all variants p3d is around $243. Assuming the 777lr is $55, it would be $263 so it does cost more than the p3d variants. To your point though the majority of the p3d variants were released before the pandemic and the inflation that came along with it. Forgot about that aspect.

I wonder where's OP

3 hours ago, G MIDY said:

Anybody asking questions on price should just do the math and logistics.

Time is the cost of development and I use UK development as an example. This is very generic but a single person UK developer would expect to work for around £20-£30ph because yes developers must eat, pay their bills and live. A 2 year development cycle for example would therefore cost around £115,000 per person developer (£30 x 37 hours x 52weeks x 2 years) and that's assuming the developer works full time.

Ignoring other costs that means £115,000 of sales are required just to break even. If that project projected to sell 1,000 copies then the price would have to be at least £115 ($150) per copy or there's no point. Add another developer to the team and the price must double or the number of copies sold must double. Aircraft development is also multifaceted which means more cost, a software developer for example is highly unlikely to be a competent 3D modeller but for an aircraft you need both!

Development is a seriously risky business because the development cycles are long and many developers work projects with zero cashflow so often they can't work on a project full time. Those that do almost always do presales to finance development. MSFS changed this considerably from the P3D days because the market is much larger.

It's actually a fact that PMDG products are cheaper. I just checked and 5 years ago and I paid $220 for two 777 variants for P3D. The 777-300ER for MSFS meanwhile is $75 and the 777-200ER is $77 so whichever way you cut it that's half price. If you consider the crazy inflation that has occurred between those two periods (2020 vs 2025) then that's a considerable improvement!

I think some should therefore just note that without money there is no flight sim development. Comparing each developer is self-defeative because each developer is different, operating in different countries and conditions. Just be glad that they exist.

You seem to be ignoring the rather important fact that sales of MSFS PMDG planes are vastly higher than for they were for P3D planes which slashes the development costs per unit sold.

4 minutes ago, Matchstick said:

You seem to be ignoring the rather important fact that sales of MSFS PMDG planes are vastly higher than for they were for P3D planes which slashes the development costs per unit sold.

That's important. It's also fair to say that their operating expenses have likely increased since before 2020 release (more hires, etc). By how much? *shrug*

The point of the ‘anger’ is missed.  It’s not about the absolute price, or how good PMDG’s products are, or their operating costs….it’s about the lack of a simple gesture of customer loyalty. When one buys nearly everything they’ve produced since the the days of Prepar3d v1, and now having paid full price for both 773 and 77F in MSFS, the lack of an ‘upgrade/discount’ for the 772 creates frustration (and apparently anger, for some).  Personally, I’m disappointed and simply choose not to pay another $77 for the 772.  I just wouldn’t feel good about the purchase, regardless of what Kok is saying about new wings & engine options.