Hi Mark,I normally stay out of these but I feel there is something that you need to understand - this market will always be a niche market - it has nothing to do with how PMDG treat their releases - they are a well known company within the market - and one that is well respected by a fairly large amount of real world working commercial pilots(bear in mind that Microsoft flight sims in general are not taken seriously at all by the general real world flying community) so it’s no mean feat to have that respect.Now the reason that this is a niche market and is likely to stay one is very simple( with every step I mention here the group of customers gets smaller):• Firstly you have to be interested in aviation, not just a passing interest - but be really passionate (otherwise you purchase a sim and use it twice, then you realise that when you crash it just says “crash” what?? No big explosions? This is rubbish, I cant even shoot anything? What’s the point? Back you go back to Call of Duty (or any other major title)• ok now you have to have time and money to invest in the hardware and software required - so you have to take the time to research how to get the flightsim to work properly on your system - a lot of people will give up at this point• then there’s the steep learning curve for those who don’t know anything about flying that want to learn (again you are going to lose people here as they get frustrated easily – in general these days anything that’s a bit of a challenge is too much for a lot of people• Ok so we’ve got through all that and now does the person even know that there is an addon market out there at all? Go and watch PMDG videos on Youtube and read the comments – a lot of people saying things like: why cant I find that plane on my flightsim? my 747 doesn’t look like that, what ?I have to pay more for that?? etc ...• Then finally, we get to quality addons with high fidelity like these – and you have to have more time to learn the systems and how to fly the aircraft properly – without using CTR E to start the engines – learn how an FMC works, how to program it, what V speeds are...etc And there are some of the reasons why this will never be a wide market – although it is a niche market, we are generally speaking a bit older and pretty damn loyal too – most are here because we own other products from PMDG and they speak for themselves.This whole “they owe us” is absolute rubbish – they always deliver to us, sure it takes longer, but the quality of the end product is unsurpassable and the after sales support is also top notch.Hype is important for a small company like this because they don’t have a huge budget to spend on advertising, they’re a small group working from home.One last thing – at the moment I don’t think there’s anyone that wants this released more than PMDG, as it will only start generating funds on release – theres no pre-order type system, so far it is sitting on $0.00 and as a business I suspect the idea would be to get that figure heading north as soon as is reasonably practicable. As was mentioned as soon as this is out its all going to start again with the 777...

Nice try, really, but this thread is full of important and intelligent point of views and no one will react to provocations therefore in won't be closed as you wish. Sorry.See you

see that u havnt read the forum rules yet about signing ur name than maybe people will take interest

..it is us customers that will be putting bread on your familys table...

I don't think so. Most PMDG guys have other "day" jobs.Iain Smith

If the PMDG crew were not so busy fine tuning their release, I would venture to say this thread would be DEAD!

If i was about to put this product on the market, there is nothing that would please me more than all the retoric i have read for the last six months on this forum and on this subject.

It's kind of funny how with every long awaited FS title we'll see this same over and over.People want perfection, but they don't have the patience to wait until it is (nearly) achieved. "Nearly" because nothing ever really is perfect. Not even the real thing.It's a paradox really, and the only way to come in terms with it is to accept that people will vent, one way or the other. Luckily there are moderators in web forums, like here, who will remove the kinds of posts that are offensive and only create negativity. For the other kind of venting I guess it's ok since it's in our human nature.The wait will probably soon be over, and the wait will be forgotten quicker than the APU is up and running :).Tero

I guess collectivity as a community we ended up digging our own grave.

Exactly. Every time I see a post like this and make the same comments (stop demanding/complaining/whining/arguing about how much information is released, when things are released and so on), I always get a little backlash from the same group. Apparently they don't understand the idea that people eventually get fed up with a lose-lose situation and just stop going the extra mile.Think about it:You get yelled at whether you provide updates, or not, so why take the extra time to provide people with the information if the main reaction is a bunch of whining/arguing/yelling?If your response is "to drum up hype," I suggest you think for a moment who truly uses these products, and would not think twice about the purchase button on the PMDG site. I have a feeling that some of the most in-depth users here don't ever cross the forum. They're the type still enjoying the 744 because they just read another section they glossed over earlier, or read before but never tried it out in the sim. They're the type who can't be bothered with the forum because, while it's full of information, it's full of repeated information, diluted in release whining. Furthermore, they have little to no further use for it as they don't need to ask questions (they read the manual). I think a lot of the dissenters have the idea that the customer base rests solidly here, and I would argue that this is the tip of the iceberg. Posting here probably does little to influence sales, but then again, based on the attitude the group I question displays, elementary statistics and econ probably aren't either in that group's focus (if that upsets you, Exhibit A would be the price debate in this same thread).

Hi Mark,I normally stay out of these but I feel there is something that you need to understand - this market will always be a niche market - it has nothing to do with how PMDG treat their releases - they are a well known company within the market - and one that is well respected by a fairly large amount of real world working commercial pilots(bear in mind that Microsoft flight sims in general are not taken seriously at all by the general real world flying community) so it’s no mean feat to have that respect.Now the reason that this is a niche market and is likely to stay one is very simple( with every step I mention here the group of customers gets smaller):• Firstly you have to be interested in aviation, not just a passing interest - but be really passionate (otherwise you purchase a sim and use it twice, then you realise that when you crash it just says “crash” what?? No big explosions? This is rubbish, I cant even shoot anything? What’s the point? Back you go back to Call of Duty (or any other major title)• ok now you have to have time and money to invest in the hardware and software required - so you have to take the time to research how to get the flightsim to work properly on your system - a lot of people will give up at this point• then there’s the steep learning curve for those who don’t know anything about flying that want to learn (again you are going to lose people here as they get frustrated easily – in general these days anything that’s a bit of a challenge is too much for a lot of people• Ok so we’ve got through all that and now does the person even know that there is an addon market out there at all? Go and watch PMDG videos on Youtube and read the comments – a lot of people saying things like: why cant I find that plane on my flightsim? my 747 doesn’t look like that, what ?I have to pay more for that?? etc ...• Then finally, we get to quality addons with high fidelity like these – and you have to have more time to learn the systems and how to fly the aircraft properly – without using CTR E to start the engines – learn how an FMC works, how to program it, what V speeds are...etc And there are some of the reasons why this will never be a wide market – although it is a niche market, we are generally speaking a bit older and pretty damn loyal too – most are here because we own other products from PMDG and they speak for themselves.This whole “they owe us” is absolute rubbish – they always deliver to us, sure it takes longer, but the quality of the end product is unsurpassable and the after sales support is also top notch.Hype is important for a small company like this because they don’t have a huge budget to spend on advertising, they’re a small group working from home.One last thing – at the moment I don’t think there’s anyone that wants this released more than PMDG, as it will only start generating funds on release – theres no pre-order type system, so far it is sitting on $0.00 and as a business I suspect the idea would be to get that figure heading north as soon as is reasonably practicable. As was mentioned as soon as this is out its all going to start again with the 777...

When a PMDG plane is well done, one for all the old 747 , almost everybody in the forum says the same compliment.The fact that now 50% , yes around 50%, of forumers have a different idea about PMDG behaviour it means that not everybody has the same idea about sim gamings and company behaviour. 50% of customers have to be to listened someways.I am not questioning which one is right and which one is bad but the only fact that around 50 % of forumers have an opposite idea it means something done by PMDG this time is 50% wrong otherwise forumers opinion would concur at 90% I would say.I will never change your opinion and you will never change mine of course but at the end a forum is made just for that. I sincerely hope that this thread will remain correct and polite like now with respect about the ideas of everyone and I above all hope that PMDG fan club will not censure this tread trying to close/shut free opinions, the most important feature in a public forum.-

When a PMDG plane is well done, one for all the old 747 , almost everybody in the forum says the same compliment.The fact that now 50% , yes around 50%, of forumers have a different idea about PMDG behaviour it means that not everybody has the same idea about sim gamings and company behaviour. 50% of customers have to be to listened someways.I am not questioning which one is right and which one is bad but the only fact that around 50 % of forumers have an opposite idea it means something done by PMDG this time is 50% wrong otherwise forumers opinion would concur at 90% I would say.I will never change your opinion and you will never change mine of course but at the end a forum is made just for that. I sincerely hope that this thread will remain correct and polite like now with respect about the ideas of everyone and I above all hope that PMDG fan club will not censure this tread trying to close/shut free opinions, the most important feature in a public forum.-

Since ur quoting percentages i think that 95 percent of users sign their names and read the rules where as the other 5 percent dont

I have taken 3 short-term trips since the said not to, and one long-term vacation to Europe, and no release! I was hoping my being away would trigger such an occurence.:( :(

Guys,I don't usually voice my opinions on these forums but this is really how I feel about this whole project...This project is GREAT! PMDG, you guys ARE going to make FS History with all this amazing technology you are putting into this fabulous plane! And we all really cannot wait to use it all and start flying it! But most importantly fly it so we can appreciate all your hardworkLast December, most of us recieved the manual packs which are awesome! I myself have never done this for an aircraft of this quality and its great to have an asset (Is that the right word to use?) such as the manuals sitting in my room! And my panel posters on my wall!I will say it again, We Really Really Really DO Appreciate ALL of the hardwork you are putting into this plane! Seriously!!But, As I think someone earlier said... There comes a point where we need to draw the line and get this thing released. Im not here to stamp my feet down whine and scream at why this plane is still not released but, we've been waiting a very long time now, and companies, like yourself and other bigger worldwide companies, have a point where the line needs to be drawn!I will say it again, We Do Appreciate ALL Of the hardwork that EVERY SINGLE Member of the Tech. and Development team have put into this! But I think, and it's/this (is) my own personal opinion, a line has to be drawn, and move on!You guys are THE BEST Flight Simulator Development Group Ever!! And I'm a HUGE, Massive fan of you guys and I will continue to buy your products because every aspect of your company is great! We know that you guys want to release this bug-less but, it's fine if there is just a small few bugs that are seriously minor...That is what Service Packs are for... Sort of like an Annual check on a plane, it goes flying, comes in for its service, for example, One of the radios is faulty (or even less minor than that!), so it gets changed, in effect its going in for a service, exactly like a car, and the part is changed and back out it goes again for lots more flying!Just a line needs to be drawn and the smallest of fixes can be brought in via the service packs AFTER the aircraft has been released. Whilst those Service packs are being compiled, you enjoy lots and lots of great reviews (Because I Know its going to be the best aircraft for FSX, EVER!!), but more importantly, Profit! Because you ARE Selling the product!So, I'm not here to stamp my feet and whine and scream as to why the aircraft hasn't been released but I think it will help the community, the project and importantly the company, PMDG to draw a line under these bugs and move onto Wide Beta!To all the team, I do appreciate you taking the time to read this and I hope this makes sense :)Best Wishes to all the Team,Tristan Marchent

I have taken 3 short-term trips since the said not to, and one long-term vacation to Europe, and no release! I was hoping my being away would trigger such an occurence.:( :(

I just got back from The Bahama's and have two more trips planned between now and September, New York City and Las Vegas. I really hope nobody was actually foolish enough to cancel their trips because of PMDG.

I don't think so. Most PMDG guys have other "day" jobs.Iain Smith

Thing is, im reading from PMDG that they are working on development 18 hours a day.... they must be super human...18 hours a day developing, and a day job...cant do both its not posible im sure you'll agree.

I would much rather pay $80 for an excellent long awaited product that works well than $55 for a half baked rushed out the door product that has many bugs and a forum full of complaints about problems.Michael Pare.

I would much rather pay $80 for an excellent long awaited product that works well than $55 for a half baked rushed out the door product that has many bugs and a forum full of complaints about problems.Michael Pare.

Like who?