1 hour ago, Dreamflight767 said:

Either way, I feel cheated by both.

The decision to split the license to two terrible developers - Dovetail and LM - set the hobby back a decade. 

It's hard to believe we've only had one point release in 14 months.

53 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

The decision to split the license to two terrible developers - Dovetail and LM - set the hobby back a decade. 

That's hyperbole in my view.
You cannot say that LM hasn't progressed ESP in the form of P3D compared to the state in which Microsoft left the platform with FSX.

What you can argue, is that the senior management teams overseeing P3D or FSW are/were nowhere near as excited by the technology that was made available to the respective development teams, compared to Phil Spencer (and others at MS) when shown the initial MSFS tech demonstrator.
It's significantly easier to leverage technology such as the worldwide streaming of satellite imagery and photogrammetry cities when your parent company is a $1.85 trillion tech firm, compared to a $108 billion defence firm or £1 million (book value) games development company.

I'm grateful that P3D has given me 4 years of improved flight simming after my transition from FS9. However, I won't be upset to move solely to MSFS if it improves further and P3D significantly does not.

A commercial flight sim i have seen for training pilots don`t have highly detailed scenery they don`t need it, it`s more about procedures. So unlikely LM will go down the same road as MSFS, but MSFS will be a big hit with Gamers on XBOX to fly the scenery after august-sept. 

4 hours ago, Chapstick said:

The decision to split the license to two terrible developers - Dovetail and LM - set the hobby back a decade. 

I disagree with said statement.

P3D is primarily LM's training toolset hence the no entertainment clause, and it is very advanced from where they initially took over ESP. That they loosely allow it sold to anyone for a really inexpensive cost is kudos for us.

Dovetail's goal was the entertainment market and they did advance their Flight Sim World quite a lot, but in the end they could not meet the financial costs and were forced to give it up. Remember it was 64bit, supported PBR and ambient occlusion, had True Sky, included A2As Accu-Feel and Orbx Global Base, and had a great mission creation system, plus a whole lot more.

Both LM and DT are not the megalith Microsoft is and I suspect Microsoft must have burned a huge amount of cash for MSFS to get where it is now (an incomplete sim), what with some 6 years of development with hundreds of developers according to various news sources. Way more $$ resources than LM and DT could possibly have thrown towards their dev crews.

So DT ended failing because they were too small to afford such expenditure and LM view P3D as a training tool sold to complement actual aircraft sales and training where P3D is built into professional systems like the pic below, an entirely different market to that of the entertainment market and probably worth millions in just a single sale.

I think we're actually in exciting times what with three sims in actual development, instead of an FSX frozen in time and a slowly developing XPlane.

Cheers R

 

 

24 minutes ago, Rogen said:

I disagree with said statement.

P3D is primarily LM's training toolset hence the no entertainment clause, and it is very advanced from where they initially took over ESP. That they loosely allow it sold to anyone for a really inexpensive cost is kudos for us.

Dovetail's goal was the entertainment market and they did advance their Flight Sim World quite a lot, but in the end they could not meet the financial costs and were forced to give it up. Remember it was 64bit, supported PBR and ambient occlusion, had True Sky, included A2As Accu-Feel and Orbx Global Base, and had a great mission creation system, plus a whole lot more.

Both LM and DT are not the megalith Microsoft is and I suspect Microsoft must have burned a huge amount of cash for MSFS to get where it is now (an incomplete sim), what with some 6 years of development with hundreds of developers according to various news sources. Way more $$ resources than LM and DT could possibly have thrown towards their dev crews.

So DT ended failing because they were too small to afford such expenditure and LM view P3D as a training tool sold to complement actual aircraft sales and training where P3D is built into professional systems like the pic below, an entirely different market to that of the entertainment market and probably worth millions in just a single sale.

I think we're actually in exciting times what with three sims in actual development, instead of an FSX frozen in time and a slowly developing XPlane.

Cheers R

 

 

Excellent Post

Wow...look at this picture.  It looks like a trainer airplane is in that dome...but look at the doors (Entry of Unauthorized Persons Prohibited)....does that dome view give amazing sense of immersion?

 

Whatever that setup is ---- I WANT IT

 

P3D is really for Enterprise Markets!!!

 

People need to stop complaining be glad that it is being developed and we all can get access to it.

Edited June 5, 20215 yr by Skywolf

15 minutes ago, Skywolf said:

Excellent Post

Wow...look at this picture.  It looks like a trainer airplane is in that dome...but look at the doors (Entry of Unauthorized Persons Prohibited)....does that dome view give amazing sense of immersion?

What do you think that is?  Some sort of projector setup inside that dome?

2 hours ago, Mace said:

What do you think that is?  Some sort of projector setup inside that dome?

Yes, short throw projection system.

https://www.defenceprocurementinternational.com/features/air/f-35-full-mission-simulator

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/f35/news-and-features/10-ways-the-f35-simulator-is-changing-pilot-training.html

 

 

 

The shot is of the full motion (RAAF) PC-21 Simulator. The integration of P3D with sim training is comprehensive, from the student desktop to the sims to the sim you see above. The carry over includes being able to set up a training sequence or tasking on the PC, then plug into the real aeroplane and the student has to do it there for real!

This is what it looks like from the Inside

So that is why I am sticking with P3D, as for the LM silence it is of no concern and the point that it is made available commercially to the little fish is a bonus. As a training sim tool it is very very good, if your trying to recreate the real world non stop all day in  tube liner, maybe not so but then sim sessions are always carefully crafted lessons or task modules, not free for all sessions. 

Remember your on a steep learning curve for real here, you got a heap of stuff to get right (all of it), you need to know the systems and your practicing doing it an hour or so of that and being assessed and marked and your mentall jaded. (you only get 3 goes at each learning module- one demo, one monitored and one on your own, if you fail it its a bust for you too - so these guys and gals are working let me tell you) But because it is a sim, you can stop, reevaluate point out the problem or address it and keep going!

 

 

Edited June 5, 20215 yr by coastaldriver

@coastaldriver, Keep in mind that the F35 has its own software running outside P3D. Like Prosim does.

For training it is amazing, but myself I want a more up to date (more real) outside world.

Edited June 5, 20214 yr by Ray Proudfoot
Edited to remove long quote plus image.

When was the last update P3D ?

9 hours ago, Chapstick said:

The decision to split the license to two terrible developers - Dovetail and LM - set the hobby back a decade. 

Disagree completely, at least as LM is concerned (Dovetail did nothing other then a simple recompile and release on Steam). I think LM has advanced the platform significantly (64 bit rewrite, DX 11 and later DX12, enhanced atmospherics (yes, still WIP) and so on).
I think it’s very telling that X-Plane could not etch out a lead or establish itself as the leading flight simulation platform despite having the market for themselves for a good few years. Personally I very much hope that LM continues to improve the platform and I’ll likely buy what they will release. Microsoft’s new sim still is a hot mess and they don’t seem to get on top of their issues, so I have no plans to leave P3D as my main sim, despite owning the others. 

Personally, I am glad that LM do not update much, sure there are quite a few things that need tidying up but the basics work well, I don't get any CTD, it does what it is supposed to. But I could not stand for a minute 70GB plus updates almost fortnightly that crash my programs and make me redo stuff to make it all work again like the alternative. The continous update process is nothing to wish for! Sure the general graphics in scenery and some aircraft could be improved but the fact that LM make really good use of other software developers good ideas and systems and integrate them into this sim is a good match. I am sure there are a bunch of changes in the system with a lot of this stuff but lets do it sensibly! I want to use the system not continuously go through the update process (NVIDIA take note! they are the only part of the system that have caused me grief since moving to V5 9 months ago with their driver updates). 

I lived with the old FSX which was never updated for a decade - so I think we can relax about what LM is or is not doing. I keep prodding them about some irritants over at their forum.

Oh and not one tweak required to have a good sim system since installation - speaks for itself really! As for customer service - what's that these days?  I have a commercial LM license does not get me anything better in terms of service either! The only place that still does it honestly is the local hardware store! 

Edited June 5, 20215 yr by coastaldriver

1 hour ago, Flying-Hare said:

When was the last update P3D ?

P3D v5.1 HF1 was released 19 Nov. 2020, more than 6 months ago ...

5 hours ago, Skywolf said:

People need to stop complaining be glad that it is being developed and we all can get access to it.

I am afraid that your analogy is wrong...or are you also glad that LM has invested so much time in the SimDirector feature??

The immersion coming from these training setups derives mostly from the flight-deck itself. LM's enterprise and military costumers do not give a **** about the overall aesthetics of the simulator.