I’ve known the head man at FS Labs for many years. Lefteris Kalamaras has often described me as a friend helping me out with a few problems with Concorde over the years.

Most of you will know the company play their cards close to their chests and only reveal info very close to a release of their software.

A topic was started in March enquiring about when FSL’s products would be made available for MSFS. A reply from Andrew Wilson said “we’ll announce it in due course”.

The topic drifted on for months with various people asking when something would be available for MSFS especially with a new version coming. No answers other than the standard reply by the beta team.

This morning I suggested they must have another source of income because if they were relying on P3D sales it couldn’t surely be enough to sustain the company. Just my opinion of course.

A couple of hours later Lefteris replied having a real go at me and consequently locked the topic. Any more such suggestions would be deleted.

Does that seem like a reasonable response to you? I was shocked at the tone he took given I’ve known the bloke for at least 10 years and have met him at Cosford and Lelystad shows.

It’s in the General section so you should be able to read the topic.

https://forums.flightsimlabs.com/topic/34366-future-msfs-product’s-availability/

Surprising, considering that another FSL moderator posted in the same thread:

”I know many a forum that lock threads when a topic of conversation doesn't go the way that the forum moderators want it to go. I'd like to think that we're a touch more relaxed around this standpoint, so long as conversations remain civil and on topic.”

The reaction was quite overboard. Your post was civil and on-topic. The speculation that FSL has other income streams outside of consumer flight simulation is, IMO, perfectly reasonable. I know that PMDG does exactly that, which RSR freely admits to - though he has never provided details on other activities his company is involved in.

What do you expect from someone who came from the school of PMDG? Awful customer service - they need to learn from companies like Fenix and have some actual respect for their customers. As a company, no idea what they are doing it's been almost half a decade that we have all been waiting, I don't see any problem with a customer questioning that.

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by benh320

Whilst I think that it is nobody else's business how FSL market their products, I would think that most people have come to the same conclusion as Ray regarding FSL having a separate source of income. I have always maintained that FSL probably have lucrative commercial contracts outside the entertainment industry, and I would also bet that this could be the reason for the very restrictive NDAs that they allude to. In short, if their MSFS products are in any way linked to commercial products, then security is going to be tighter than a...........well, you get the picture

How do we know/assume that FSL needs any income?  Maybe they have regular well-paying jobs, and FSL is just a side-gig for them. 

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Mace

1 hour ago, benh320 said:

What do you expect from someone who came from the school of PMDG? Awful customer service

This.^  These companies/people behave like primadonnas, often with very rude customer interactions. I no longer support or buy their products.

39 minutes ago, Mace said:

How do we know/assume that FSL needs any income?  Maybe they have regular well-paying jobs, and FSL is just a side-gig for them. 

I was told in September 2022 by one of the team he’d given up his job and was working full-time for FSL.

Bear in mind Andrew Wilson provided the software for the Concorde simulator at Brooklands Museum. That has been open to the public since 2006. I imagine that contract has helped.

I suspect you lit the blue touch paper a few weeks back Ray and today's bit of speculation on FSL's financial arrangements was enough to cause combustion.

Was it reasonable?  Dunno but obviously a very human response to a touchy subject.😎

Very intrigued by the 'unique, innovative features' they are bringing to MSFS.

My moneys on animated cabin crew; a bunch of slightly jaded young ladies in uncomfortable clothing will give a full safety briefing during pushback, dish out toasted sandwiches in the cruise and try and flog you a duty free quart of Old Man's Finger (75% proof) at top of descent.🙃

11 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

I suspect you lit the blue touch paper a few weeks back Ray and today's bit of speculation on FSL's financial arrangements was enough to cause combustion.

Was it reasonable?  Dunno but obviously a very human response to a touchy subject.😎

Do you mean this one for the attention of Lefteris and Andrew…

”Lefteris / Andrew,

I’m assuming your work on the MSFS version of Concorde is progressing well. Will you be incorporating all the bug reports from P3D in that version? Seems logical you would.

I’m interested in what happens after its release. Will you then turn your attention back to fixing the bugs in P3Dv5? Or will you stay with the MSFS version and fix any reported issues with that version?

I and others have been very patient waiting for our bugs to be fixed. Hopefully you’ll give us some indication of when that will happen.”

A perfectly reasonable request for the order things will be done in. Funny how other comments on today’s locked topic were far more abrasive than mine but those were ignored by the management.

After their disappointing latest Concorde, and 'support' that i have experienced and observed i am done with them, will not give them a single penny for their MSFS plane - annoying team with horrible customer care - just my opinion here.

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Beardyman

Ray,

I guess I'll play devil's advocate...what was the purpose of your post on the FSL Forum? What response were you trying to elicit from FSL? A status update? (That had already been answered several times in the thread...to the point it had me wondering how the developers balance their time between coding and answering the forum.)

Personally, I'm very old school...there are three subjects I don't discuss in public...namely, because they are confrontational and are highly subjective upon opinion: 1) Religion, 2) Politics and 3) Personal Finance.

Had you asked the same question of me (or my business), I am afraid that I would've likely had a similar (initial) response and likely would've locked the thread. Could Lefteris have "polished" his response a little? Yes, personal attacks should be thought through carefully and thoroughly BEFORE hitting the send button. Did you believe at the time of writing that your post on the FSL Forum could have been viewed as being personal?

Yes, Lefteris has come across in the past as being very curt in his forum responses...his behaviour may be off-putting to many. That being said, I do believe he (and his team) are very passionate about the work that they do. I paid for FSL's products (I think both 32 bit and 64 bit) and received immense joy from imaginary/simulated flights using their pretend aircraft. I have no expectation that they "owe me" anything more beyond that (a fully functional simulator).

I try to view forums (doesn't matter the source/content/hobby) as a source of information sharing. A "what can I gain or what can I contribute" scenario. Your post on FSL, in my humble opinion, met neither of those simple criteria.

I respect the contributions you've made to the flight sim community over the years (decades in fact!), but, I do not think that I can agree with you on this particular matter.

Differences on opinion can be a good thing...it makes us think a little more critically to solutions for gaining common objectives.

Best regards, Rob

Ray criticizes FSL, that's new. I have not been a fan of them for ten years, for various reasons. One of them, bad customer relations, aligns with your experience, Ray.

Peter

No one was asking FSL for details of their finances, from what I read it was mere speculation of having other incomes streams other than entertainment titles which to me was OK. 

I have really no interest in FSL any longer - I would have considered the Concorde in MSFS but now probably won't. I have been a supporter of them since the beginning, but they have developed a massive "let them eat cake" attitude and seem to believe that once they finally release something into MSFS the hoi polloi will mindlessly purchase their titles without question.

Their face of the forums is a smug, arrogant individual - their "don't call us, we'll call you" attitude of "no questions allowed, we'll tell you when you can ask questions" makes me not bother with them at all.

They have stiff competition in MSFS now, and there's no way I'm buying their 320 if they release it to MSFS - there are enough quality offering as it is.

Each to their own however - I personally believe they're going down the Level-D path.

Wouldn't surprise me if they produce nothing for MSFS, and frankly, they wouldn't be missed.

 

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by DavidP

This topic takes me back to 2017 FSLabs forums when there were talks of a 64bit Concorde that was postponed and then back on again. I lived in the FSLabs forums back in my P3D days and I'm not surprised at Lefteris reply to Ray. It's been a back and forth for years over Concorde between them.  

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Wise87

53 minutes ago, rmeier said:

I guess I'll play devil's advocate...what was the purpose of your post on the FSL Forum? What response were you trying to elicit from FSL? A status update?

Just my opinion on how how they must be receiving income. It wasn’t directed to anyone. Just a comment and I wasn’t expecting any response from the management.

55 minutes ago, rmeier said:

1) Religion, 2) Politics and 3) Personal Finance.

Then they should have just ignored it. It wasn’t phrased as a question. Just me pondering how they’re getting an income. I thought the third was sex. 😁

56 minutes ago, rmeier said:

Had you asked the same question of me (or my business), I am afraid that I would've likely had a similar (initial) response

But it wasn’t a question. It was a comment.😉
 

57 minutes ago, rmeier said:

Did you believe at the time of writing that your post on the FSL Forum could have been viewed as being personal?

No as it wasn’t directed to any individual. It was a general comment. Many others had posted comments criticising the lack of news. They were ignored by management. Mine wasn’t.

59 minutes ago, rmeier said:

Yes, Lefteris has come across in the past as being very curt in his forum responses...

Join a long list of people who feel the same.

1 hour ago, rmeier said:

I have no expectation that they "owe me" anything more beyond that (a fully functional simulator).

And that was the purpose of my post a month ago. Wanting to know the sequence in which bug fixes would be delivered. I and others have reported many bugs that need fixing. Concorde was released in August. The last update was in November. Nothing since and nothing said on when the P3D bugs will be fixed. Do you think that’s an acceptable way to support a new release?

1 hour ago, rmeier said:

I respect the contributions you've made to the flight sim community over the years (decades in fact!), but, I do not think that I can agree with you on this particular matter.

That’s okay. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’ll just add I’ve been a great fan of their 32-bit Concorde and have praised it on numerous occasions over many years. Seems that counts for nothing.

But to receive such an unwarranted attack for an innocent comment sets a new low for them as far as I’m concerned.