The product is a training product. Once that sinks in all this discussion about entertainment can evaporate. What is the purpose of trying to convince LM to call P3D an entertainment product. What is the advantage to that?????

 

If they can produce a quality civilian and military product and also allow us to use it at a modest price why babble on about entertainment stuff. I just do not see why entertainment is such an important item. I would much rather have available, on my PC, a program that is also used as a basis in reputable civilian and military trainers - period. Next you will want the ability to use a game controller with P3D and start asking why it is not on X-Box.

 

It is completely irrational to think that LM is interested in a measly $1,5,000,000, or what ever the projected revenue might be, by putting P3D in a box and selling it at Walmart. Any manager that suggested that would be encouraged to examine the mental health provisions of the company health plan.

 

I feel very fortunate that LM has created a flight training product and allowed the flight sim community to use it so they can collect feedback. They did not, repeat did not, create P3D to sell at Walmart.

Noel, I'm confused at your responses to the snippets you pulled out and responded to, especially the first.  Part of my point was exactly what your lead sentence stated - the distinction between entertainment and not entertainment is arbitrary. 

 

The point here is the MARKET that LM will be willing to pursue - and that's training and simulation - not the use some will ultimately put it to.  You can play with a trainer, and you can sim from many games.   I'm sure there are plenty of people who've had the opportunity to "play" in level D sims.  MS marketed FSX as a game, yet it was and still is put to some fairly serious simulation usage.  LM has and will continue to market P3D as a trainer and simulator, and some people will game with it - "play" it if you will - and that's FINE, but LM still isn't going to shoot (cough, cough) for that market in either feature set additions or marketing/sales channel efforts.  They're not in that business and don't want to be.

 

Again, I don't know why people get so hung up on this.

 

As for the second part, in this case I was referring to truly obvious, no-doubt about it, over-the-top, way to the game side of the bell-curve stuff - again, stuff that's not going to happen.  Here's perhaps our biggest disagreement.  I think these kinds of obvious game elements are necessary for the general public to be interested.  But again, it doesn't matter because it simply will not happen.

 

Please note, my comments are not about EULAs or anything remotely EULA related.  They're about target markets, sales channels and focus, and I can think of almost no scenario in which LM would expand their current focus to the general consumer.  They have no REASON to.  And I think that's just fine and further believe that most of the angst about this is misplaced.

 

Scott

There is gaming and then there is simulation. And then there is consumer hardcore simulation. There is no game out there that can have the ability to use real world procedures, real world charts, and real world weather to my knowledge. This is not some fantasy game, at least for me its not and im guessing the majority on here take it alot more seriously than that.

 

The word Entertainment is purely subjective. We are not just talking about just entertainment gaming industry in fact forget that altogether, but rather this 'for entertainment use'. Last time I checked it means to enjoy the action, something that pleases etc.

So if this is such a bad thing then an immediate note to all real world pilots out there, that you are forbidden to enjoy your job. No smiling, telling a joke at cruise, smiling to the kid that is in awe as he boards the plane, You must be rigid robots and never enjoy flying, but rather just fly the plane only. 

 

Yes they will always be corporate and commercial focused, but simulation is about learning, and we are all learning, even to the most experienced. So educational license  are surely to include being entertained and enjoy the simulation as im sure academic people are and professionals.

 

If LM doesnt want to deal directly with the FS community then start banning all the FSX addons with native installers otherwise get Aerosoft, or Orbx to distribute and publish an appropriate version. 

 

 

Talk about arguing over nothing...

 

Thank you. My point, exactly.

 

Surely, it's not just a matter of revenue but also whether Lockheed Martin wants to be in the consumer/entertainment business at all. It's a major defence contractor with no experience of that business.

 

Also I suggest using a figure of 100,000 is optimistic. Tom Allensworth recently said there are a steady 63 new members a day - that's about 23,000 a year. (See post #25 of http://forum.avsim.net/topic/397422-just-how-big-is-the-fsx-community-worldwide/?hl=+members)

 

Optimistically assuming they all bought P3D licence, at US$50 that's a potential annual revenue of US$1.15 million. That's only about 0.0025% of Lockheed Martin's current revenue of US$47.2 billion. Maybe Lockheed Martin would prefer to concentrate it's efforts on training contracts such as its $114 million, five-year contract to upgrade combat vehicle simulators for soldier training and to expand the training capability for the Marine Corps.

 

O.k. Gerry, that is certainly a valid point.

 

But then: Why do they attract customers over their own internet shop like a retailer? I doubt that a lot of dfense ministeries from around the world will "buy" a multi-million-dollar contract over the internet. B)  

 

I think they are already going the way to do their big business but also to do their (small) bunsiness with flightschools, simulator centers, pilots and students. And frankly: If they incorporate FTXG + Vectors + Mesh in the Professional versions that would be a good reason to go for it! (Just wishfull thinking) :smile:

 

BTW: I used the numer of total users of AVSIM displaied at the starting page (exactly 116,613 and I assume that not all of us are registered here)...

Edited September 27, 201312 yr by Flying_Doc

No one really cares much about gaming elements IMO--they have no staying power really.   What all potential long term users want is a realistic & robust simulator.  I think there is enough of a market there to pay the tiny team of engineers who work on P3D (relative to LM's entire workforce) enough to sustain the product, which is largely a PR campaign by LM, really.  Heck their annual budget is in the 10's of billions.  LM will be happy to have anyone buy the product even if they have no plans of becoming real world pilots.   The whole concern of the P3D EULA is just them trying to frame the product a certain way and has no teeth in it for users who buy it for 'entertainment'--the distinction between 'entertainment' and 'learning' is exceedingly blurry.

That is an opinion you are entitled to have of course. I've been a constant flight sim user since FS4, and to me the gaming elements in FSX was one of its best features. I have never regarded flight sims as anything more than games. My statement was based on P3D gaining general popularity as opposed to becoming a hit within the hard core simmer crowd.

 

I think a good flying game would have a much better sales potential than P3D - to the non-hardcore simmer. A game building on the strenghts of a sandbox game like the Sims, GTA and Minecraft, only with airplanes could have done well with the right people at the helm. Gaming can also happen in the form of virtual airlines/air force, economy elements (like FS Passangers, Air Hauler etc.). Not all simmers are in it for the procedural training. I sim to relax and have fun after a long day at work. If I want realism I fly real aircraft in my local flying club. That is a totally different ballgame.

Hi,

 

Agree 100%, the iFly 737NG is right up there with PMDG. P3D's core means more to me than any third party addon, this includes PMDG. So right off the bat I'll have P3D V2.0  and iFly's 737 NG aircraft.... In a word..................SOLD!!!

.

 

Im sorry, but IMO visually the iFly has nothing on the PMDG (I own both).

But then: Why do they attract customers over their own internet shop like a retailer? I doubt that a lot of dfense ministeries from around the world will "buy" a multi-million-dollar contract over the internet

All Lockheed Martin is selling on the internet are P3D licences for developer and professional versions for commercial use as well as one for academic education, all for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment. it is not selling training contracts that way. A good reason for it not to get involved with consumer/retail sales is that consumers have additional rights in many countries and I doubt Lockheed Martin wants to become involved in consumer legislation.

 

My opinion is that Lockheed Martin is developing P3D to support its training work and, as a by-product, is offering its licences via the internet. I don't believe it will pay much attention to the special needs of flight simulation enthusiasts, especially if that would incur additional costs. We shall get what we get!

Im sorry, but IMO visually the iFly has nothing on the PMDG (I own both).

 

I disagree. iFly at least has a cockpit builders edition. 

 

 

To me, Flight Simulation has always been about education and the possibility of expanding into real world aviation experiences, something I feel the academic and or Pro license fits perfectly with.
 
My only conundrum is if I should get academic or pro. The argument about wether I am entitled to use it at all is complete nonsense as far as I am concerned.
 
Roll on V2.0
 
The only addons devs that will / have been getting my cash recently are the ones who are supporting P3D. I may be a drop in the ocean but I have been at this for 20+ years now so I am sure there are plenty more who will agree that P3D is the way forward.

 

+1 On all of this. Don't we all learn something nearly every time we open our sims? I think it's also safe to say that all of us have at least some aspirations towards actual flying. Bam. Problem solved.

 

 

My opinion is that Lockheed Martin is developing P3D to support its training work and, as a by-product, is offering its licences via the internet. I don't believe it will pay much attention to the special needs of flight simulation enthusiasts, especially if that would incur additional costs. We shall get what we get!

 

Well whatever attention they pay to our community is more than Microsoft is...

A game building on the strenghts of a sandbox game like the Sims, GTA and Minecraft, only with airplanes could have done well with the right people at the helm.

 

Yes, it would be possible to develop more gaming aspects of using a flight simulator, but this has very dubious staying power in the absence of a strong simulator IMO.   I use a game element too--FSPax, as marginal as it is for a game.  Without a killer simulator no gaming components will have a lot of service life.  The crowd that cares about flight simulation have often been at it for years--no, decades.  Was it the 'game' element of FSX that has these folks into flight simulation for 20 years?  Nope, it's the 'as real  as it can try to be' that does it, i.e., the simulation.   The immersion is good enough if it's done well, for its own sake.  I would venture to say at some point should our culture not destroy itself first, we will in the not too distant future have a flight simulator that actually has huge value just for sight seeing alone.   There is no 'game' needed for this, and this I will argue is the only long term basis for flight simulator use for the micro-masses.   No 'game' will garner this sort of long term-decade level--interest.  Yes, this is MO and I'm stickin' to it!

One thing that is to be kept in mind in relation to P3D is that flight simulation is just one aspect of its development. Its purpose is not only for flight training but also for land and water. This is the reason I doubt we will ever see an entertainment license, and rightly so. P3D is 100% a training tool for land, sea and air. Although we are lucky to be able to still use the flight aspect of the simulator and a lot of addons are compatible, its not directly intended for flight only as was the case with the MS simulator titles.

This thread is beginning to remind me of this:

 

 

You can skip the add very quickly.

 

Bob

 

 

All Lockheed Martin is selling on the internet are P3D licences for developer and professional versions for commercial use as well as one for academic education

 

Not quite right, Gerry.  P3D is a training product, and the professional version is sold for that purpose - private or commercial.  This is clearly spelled out by LM.

 

One of the big misconceptions seems to be that outside of the educational license this is strictly a commercial product.  It's not.

 

 

Scott

This thread is beginning to remind me of this:

 

 

 

You can skip the add very quickly.

 

Bob

 

:lol:

 

 

Ontopic: P3D v2 is the future flight sim for me, no doubt about it. No matter how much i tried, i never really enjoyed FSX. (too ugly)

 

Can't wait to entertrain myself with P3D v2.  :ph34r: