4 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

To me its unfortunate that in many problem posts, the absolute last thing people suspect is their own systems.

Hahaha. So very true. Monkeys with razorblades always come to mind. 😄

2 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

🤔

1) For me, finally just throwing my hands up, uninstalling and trying again has sometimes worked, especially when all else fails..... In fact, in another, earlier thread, my advice was not to bother updating, and to always reinstall.

To me its unfortunate that in many problem posts, the absolute last thing people suspect is their own systems.

It’s not possible to stop the application being updated. It’s forced with no option to refuse the update.

Too many people are reporting too many different problems for them to be user errors. What worked fine before the latest update doesn’t now work. That has been reported by many users.

42 minutes ago, Kilo60 said:

Why is anyone still trying to play this game if they are already frustrated and fed up with all the issues...?

Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but there are people - include me - having fun and even a lot of fun flying in MSFS. I've made a flight in the Greater Tokyo region yesterday which I had similarly done in all legacy sims and with all addons I could get. Nothing came even close to the feeling I had during that flight in MSFS.

I see absolutely no need to shelf it, just to the contrary, I see MSFS as the future of flight simulation for the next years, and it's a future beginning right now, despite some teething troubles which are there, no doubt.

If there are issues, I help ironing them out via Zendesk reports and forums. I've done this in the alpha and I intend to continue to do so.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited October 2, 20205 yr by pmb

57 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

It’s not possible to stop the application being updated. It’s forced with no option to refuse the update.

Too many people are reporting too many different problems for them to be user errors. What worked fine before the latest update doesn’t now work. That has been reported by many users.

Sorry. I didn't mean it in that way. I meant completely uninstalling, and reinstalling the game.

I suspect (and have had it happen) that sometimes updates, especially if they hang, or there are other issues, can corrupt the game in such a way as to cause later problems. So I recommend just completely uninstalling and starting over, rather than updating, at least for now.

As for reporting issues..... For me, yes and no.

For instance people keep reporting a change in the tree LOD. And many others are not seeing it. Somebody started a thread suggesting looking for what might be causing the disparity between users. But it was quickly noted that few people claiming to have issues were participating in the thread, making it essentially useless. (this was earlier in the day)

I myself posted a video from august showing MSFS various settings including their effect on LOD. The split screen video showed Japan as it was this august, and as it appeared in the new update. No change in tree LOD was apparent.

Video was ignored.

I posted pictures of my own (updated) sim, and a very satisfactory tree distance. Pictures were ignored.

It left me wondering if people were looking for solutions, or simply venting.

People said certain planes were completely unflyable now. (lots of exclamation points)

I posted a gentleman working around the issues (yes he was having some) and still able to complete his flight. 

Guess what....

Edited October 2, 20205 yr by HiFlyer

11 hours ago, JDWalley said:

Got to be honest here — I can understand the OP's frustration.  

I've been pretty tolerant so far. I knew, given its earlier-than-expected release, MSFS was likely to be the equivalent of an "early access" product, and didn’t mind that.  I was fully expecting that it would take some months and a number of updates/patches before it was truly at a completed status. 

What I was not expecting was that it would go backwards, that every patch would break more previously-working features than fixing broken ones. An exaggeration? Maybe, but not by much.  Frankly, as a former programmer, I have to wonder at Asobo's code-design skills.  A properly-designed application should be compartmentalized enough that revising one section of the code shouldn’t affect other parts of the program but, with MSFS, it seems that fixing one part of the program breaks something completely different. Fixed sluggish performance?  Now, the A320 engines shut off.  Fix that? Great, but now the LOD is drastically reduced.  Is this just totally what we used to call "spaghetti code," where modifying one place changes all sorts of unrelated behavior?

Add to that their release schedule. Look, I wouldn’t be clamoring for one big patch per month, as long as Asobo put out regular hotfixes for things that had been working but got broken. I would be happy with getting "new feature" patches only quarterly or half-yearly if that were the case. But it’s frustrating beyond belief to be forced to install a new patch while wondering what previously-working features will now be broken, and knowing that, whatever they may be, we'll have to live with them another month until the next patch, at which time we'll learn what new things have been broken…lather, rinse, repeat. 

Putting it as simply as possible: I don’t mind slow progress, as long as we're not moving backwards...but, frankly, that’s what it's starting to feel like. 

let us not forget it's microsoft.....we know the history of windows

Edited October 2, 20205 yr by Isaiah53six

4 minutes ago, pmb said:

Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but there are people - include me - having fun and even a lot of fun flying in MSFS. I've made a flight in the Greater Tokyo region yesterday which I had similarly done in all legacy sims and with all addons I could get. Nothing came even come close to the feeling I had during that flight in MSFS.

I see absolutely no need to shelf it, just to the contrary, I see MSFS as the future of flight simulation for the next years, and it's a future beginning right now, despite some teething troubles which are there, no doubt.

I agree Michael. I've been identified as a "basher" but I do recognise some very impressive parts of this sim. Yesterday I was flying around Naples - with just the generic scenery and it was extremely beautiful at all times of day and night. I just wish the devs would check their own work before publishing patches.

@HiFlyer, for those who have MFS (I don’t) your advice and comments can be a basis for discussion. I’ve seen plenty of posts from those who reported problems during beta testing that weren’t acknowledged. That’s unfortunate.

1 hour ago, ShawnG said:

Telling us we're not allowed to challenge posts, however, is over the line

So far as I can see, no one has told you that. I thought the point was about the way some people challenge.

Your own responses usually seem to be based on some analysis and reason, but the problem has been the extent of the crude and childish responses from certain posters who presumably get a kick from insulting others, while adding nothing constructive.

It's pretty obvious that several topics could have been introduced in a more constructive way, with less inflammatory language. Some others do look like a baiting exercise, but these are then encouraged by the responses they generate and the ones who lose out are those seeking help. Some of those do not spend every day on Avsim and may not realise their problem has been reported before.

Edited October 2, 20205 yr by Biggles2010

18 minutes ago, pmb said:

Maybe it's hard to understand for some, but there are people - include me - having fun and even a lot of fun flying in MSFS. I've made a flight in the Greater Tokyo region yesterday which I had similarly done in all legacy sims and with all addons I could get. Nothing came even come close to the feeling I had during that flight in MSFS.

I see absolutely no need to shelf it, just to the contrary, I see MSFS as the future of flight simulation for the next years, and it's a future beginning right now, despite some teething troubles which are there, no doubt.

If there are issues, I help ironing them out via Zendesk reports and forums. I've done this in the alpha and I intend to continue to do so.

Kind regards, Michael

That's me Michael.  I just did a short VFR to Fussen/Reutte last eve and it was breathtakingly beautiful--as I remembered it when we took our twins there many years ago.  I've had very few issues even after Patch 3 and do mostly IFR flights in the TBM.  I need to post something on zendesk that appeared after Patch 3 and that is right at rotation the plane(s) will move slightly to the right as the nosewheel lifts off.  Maybe it has something to do w/ yoke calibration as it affects the 3 planes I've tried, but it never did that before Patch 3.  This screenshot does not do the scene justice but yes, here we are a few miles out from Fussen just gorgeous!

1 hour ago, robert young said:

I agree Michael. I've been identified as a "basher" but I do recognise some very impressive parts of this sim. Yesterday I was flying around Naples - with just the generic scenery and it was extremely beautiful at all times of day and night. I just wish the devs would check their own work before publishing patches.

Bug fixes tend to break things.  Otherwise they would not exist in the published code.  IOW bugs are unattended side affects of new code and have no unit tests.  Testing for them is out-of-scope of whatever functionality is being introduced.  That is the task at hand - what are the side-affects of code changes.

In my last job, any code change almost always required a full regression test which was demanded by the business group and took well over 2 hours.  ASOBO needs to figure out how to do this IMO but has the additional responsibility to adapt the code to many installs.

As the code base stabilizes full regression tests will not be needed (as much) but the team needs to give them some consideration.

Just want to add that in a data driven app like FS2020, bad data (terrain, weather avionics etcetera) can cause 50% or more of all application failures.

 

Regards

bs

Edited October 3, 20205 yr by bean_sprout

29 minutes ago, Biggles2010 said:

I thought the point was about the way some people challenge.

This is precisely the point. While some of the so-called "negative" reporting can be over the top - mostly borne of frustration I would suggest. My observations are that the level of intolerance to anything remotely considered "negative" towards MSFS is truly awful with the level of put-downs, insults and general intolerance of other people's problems.

I think everyone should make an effort keep their gun powder dry.

I think we can all agree the sim has great potential - and that is what it is at the moment. It is up to the developers to want to take it to that level and actually get there that is the $64 question.

33 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@HiFlyer, for those who have MFS (I don’t) your advice and comments can be a basis for discussion. I’ve seen plenty of posts from those who reported problems during beta testing that weren’t acknowledged. That’s unfortunate.

I can't deny several problems during MSFS beta testing weren't acknowledged. Any no doubt this its unfortunate.

However, to put things in perspective: I have been on the Prepar3d forum since 2012. There have been some issues reported over many years now (take the popping autogen and the morphing mesh only as examples) which no one from the developers cares to acknowledge -  and this is release version 5 now! .

I am not that intimate with X-Plane fora, but from what I keep hearing, it happens there as well.

Kind regards, Michael

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

It’s not possible to stop the application being updated. It’s forced with no option to refuse the update.

Too many people are reporting too many different problems for them to be user errors. What worked fine before the latest update doesn’t now work. That has been reported by many users.

I believe someone mentioned that if you are not connected to the internet, it won't (can't) update. Re-connect to the internet once loaded. Again, this is not optimal, since we are not anywhere near a stable release. Once we're there, opt-in will be a good alternative.

As far as user error, it might be more hardware/software conflicts, there's a ton of things that can go wrong.

2 hours ago, Biggles2010 said:

So far as I can see, no one has told you that. I thought the point was about the way some people challenge.

Your own responses usually seem to be based on some analysis and reason, but the problem has been the extent of the crude and childish responses from certain posters who presumably get a kick from insulting others, while adding nothing constructive.

It's pretty obvious that several topics could have been introduced in a more constructive way, with less inflammatory language. 

This one for instance.  🙂

There is another thread here today about Asobo CEO Sebastien working on his PPO.  the third post in response was an inevitable troll comment, and a little later someone suggested in so many words that he's bound to be an unsafe pilot. That is apparently perfectly OK, but calling the bluff of an attention seeking overly emotional "I'm going to take my ball and go home" post isn't?  I mean, I'm not going to pen one of those "fine, just uninstall it then" posts, as it's not my style, but I'm usually thinking it.  Issues are discussable, emotions are not.

I don't really have a bone in this fight since I returned the sim.  Having said that, I do check forums daily hoping for updates, updates that put the sim on the right track to stability, growth, and maturity.

Personally, I felt cheated, deceived, and taken advantage of.  Like most here, I was anticipating a well developed, solid (not completely bug free) product based on what I was TOLD - not what I wanted to hear, made-up in my head, or read on some post on some random website.

Regarding incompetence...well, imagine you order a cheeseburger but it comes out missing the cheese.  Fine, you send it back and it comes out with cheese but now missing tomatoes.  Send it back again but now the burger is cold.  At some point you're going to start to wonder.

Now, I do think Microsoft is the truly at fault here and Asobo can't really stand-up for itself.  I do think that after release, Asobo had the opportunity to sorta apologize, explain, and slow things down.  But instead they keep pushing things out that make (potential) customers like myself very apprehensive.

Add insult to injury but with a poor release, poor patches, PMDG announcing a year + delay in their development, and no other significate aircraft DEV making any commitments to FS2020, the feature isn't too bright right now - for me.