34 minutes ago, Silicus said:

Why doesn't Joerg say in all honesty: 'Our focus right now is on x and not on y?' I think everyone can feel the disconnect at the moment between what simmers want and what the developers want. This is what irks the reasonable members here that want an honest answer and a clear direction.

Our focus is on new content and not bug fixing.

Our focus is on bug fixing, but no new content.

Which one of these possible responses would satisfy the masses?  Neither of which are true, but that’s what you want him to say?

Edited August 30, 20214 yr by Gilandred

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

1/ Respect is not only form, it is also content. 

2/ I didn't say that somebody signed up to gaslight me. I said that a particular post was bad politician speak.

 

 

You basically called him a liar and that was uncalled for. Plain and simple. 

3 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

We , the users, observe that the actual priorities, the priorities which are on Neuman's roadmap, the priorities that have gotten a concretisation are new DLCs now the the Xbox version has been completed, these are not improvements of the existing aircraft,

Here’s another post claiming to speak for everyone in the community.

I observe the developers have a regularly-updated, community driven bug-fixing and wishlist programme which does not exist in any other sim or game community I am a member of.

At the same time I observe development on additions and DLC, in line with every other sim and game community I am a member of.

32 minutes ago, Silicus said:

Belittling bugs, mentioned by seasoned flight simmers, (it is a sim for simmers, right?) does not help the discussion.

Why doesn't Joerg say in all honesty: 'Our focus right now is on x and not on y?' I think everyone can feel the disconnect at the moment between what simmers want and what the developers want. This is what irks the reasonable members here that want an honest answer and a clear direction.

For some of us it is not a game, it is a serious hobby, with home cockpits and/or a lot of time/money invested.

And for us the direction taken, is confusing or at least for me.....

i can understand that, easily. But they really have to cater for everyone, msfs isnt reserved or exclusive to serious hobbyist, its actually quite the opposite, so i really think some should "soften" their views on the whole project instead of trying to fit a triangle in a square hole. How do you reconcile the "it has to work right now because this is my passion, my hobby, my money" with the "geez this is so cool and fun".

Just for the record. I am 100% satisfied with the current state of the Sim. I agree with announced DLCs and direction and I like Jörgs enthusiasm/vision given in those Interviews.

Edited August 30, 20214 yr by urthgental

And here we have the true nature of the forum warriors....

Joerg gives a speech and states what is happening and what they are doing and why and how it's going to improve the Sim...

Community reaction is  MS/Asobo are lying we don't believe them, the company needs to listen to me me me because I am an expert in everything and I wouldn't do that

Joerg says nothing...

MS/Asobo doesn't care about me me me and should make a statement to the community and confirm they are doing what I want

The credibility is absolute garbage

 

.

58 minutes ago, himmelhorse said:

To me it seems fairly obvious that these divisions may not really be communicating totally with each other and that in itself may be half the answer.  When I ranted and raved about core issues I was under the impression that they were all working together and it was simply a matter of ceasing updates and fixing core issues. 

Now that I am more aware of what is actually happening (I may well have been among a minority in not understanding) I think the actual solution may be in actually adding competent staff to the core issues and leave the update division alone. This, of course also depends on any fixes being fully related to the other divisions in order to prevent conflicts.

I

 

I cannot count, the number of times on this forum, and the official forum, people have stated...   There are different teams working on different aspects of the sim.

I cannot believe that anyone even still thinks that this is not the case.

Tony, am not having a go at you, but frankly it's frightening that so many people still don't get this 🙂  Developpmetn of software this complex is always going to be in divisions like this, and each of the WU and SU teams are going to bve further subdevided..  for example, the great people at Working Title are only one small team (I would imagine) of the Core section..  I wouold expect multiple groups and streams all working on different aspects.  Likewise in WU  I would expect different teams working on things like  DEM, POI's etc etc

If you look at the posts on Asobos website about jobs available, you will find that what you suggest about improving core by adding new people is exactly what they are looking for and have been for some time 🙂

Graham

Edited August 30, 20214 yr by Moria15

43 minutes ago, Gilandred said:

Our focus is on new content and not bug fixing.

Our focus is on bug fixing, but no new content.

Which one of these possible responses would satisfy the masses?  Neither of which are true, but that’s what you want him to say?

Of course Asobo are doing both simultaneously.  They have WU for new content, and SU for major bug fixing and functionality enhancements, as well as being able to send out urgent bug fixes via hotfixes or putting them into the next WU.

It's the most professional and inclusive development program I've seen for a flight simulator.

10 minutes ago, himmelhorse said:

Now that I am more aware of what is actually happening (I may well have been among a minority in not understanding) I think the actual solution may be in actually adding competent staff to the core issues and leave the update division alone.

That's an observant post, and no, I don't think you're necessarily in the minority in not having grasped that, or if so, it's not by much. 🙂  There are a lot of folks commenting here, as there always are on the internets, who do not have a grasp of how development projects of the scale of this sim -- or even, really, a fraction of its size -- are managed and run.   And that's totally cool, no one expects people who aren't experienced developers who've worked on large projects to have a solid comprehension of that.  It's not their job.

But, if you'll forgive me a digression, for the benefit of those who aren't self-declared internet experts and may be curious, there are any number of reasons why "9 women can't make a baby in a month" applies very much to software development at scale as well.  Even without getting into matters of business priorities, or even of project dependencies, the first two big obstacles are a) people available with the skills you need, and b) the limit to the number of people who can practically work on a chunk of code.

For the first point, skills are not equally distributed across a dev team.  Especially when it comes to trickier issues, you may only have one or two folks on a team who are even capable of working on a particular problem, and that says nothing about their availability.  The "hero" members of dev teams, the ones who can fix almost anything, rarely have the time on a sufficiently large project to handle everything that comes their way effectively.   They're almost always a bottleneck.   Especially because people who can fill that role reliably are expensive, and to an extent it's wasteful to have more of them than you need most of the time and thus have them working on "lesser" work.

But even if you do have the skills on hand, there's a practical limit on the number of developers who can work on any given code surface at a time.  I know from talking to folks about things like this in the past that this can be a little bit hard for non-developers to grasp, but it really is very much like building a house.   You may have a team of 200 talented carpenters, but if you need a wall to go up they can't all work on it, they will end up getting in each others' way and slowing things down in the long run.

So, instead, you spread them out, trying to disperse the talent you have on as many different coterminous tasks as possible.  There's always an impedance mismatch somewhere, though, which can cause one set to finish earlier or later than the others, and at times it can be frustrating -- you have all these developers, why can't you get this done faster?  But it's just the way it goes, all you can do is try to minimize that waste as much as possible.

(As a result, being able to somewhat accurately break up a huge project into chunks, and size and sequence those to minimize the amount of dead time between crucial phases, is one of the most valuable skills to have on a dev team;   hiring for it, naturally, is hard in direct proportion to its value.)

So what do you do when you have developers who could work on an outstanding issue, but for whom there just isn't room?   You put them on another task that needs doing, so they can be doing something productive.   It might not be priority #1, it might not be the one that everyone is clamoring for, but as long as the task came from your backlog it's a useful thing to do.

(And then you go on the fora, where all the "experts" crawl out of the woodwork to tell you that you're incompetent for working on Task B when, obviously, Task A is the most important thing.  What's wrong with you, anyway?! 😄  It's even worse if the progress on Task A isn't readily apparent, because it's a very detailed and complex thing in progress;  say you're working on it and people call you a liar, because it's clear to them in their omniscience that nothing is being done...)

And it only gets more complex when you add in the details of longer-term planning, of changing business needs, of projects with 12 to 18 month lead time that only need to have a few people working on them until suddenly everyone needs to be working on them, of firm deadlines pushed down on you that there is no way in the world you can change, so you just do the best you can with them...

It may sound like I'm complaining, but I'm not.   It's a fascinating problem and the sort of thing I love solving.  But it's something that is not readily appreciated by folks who've never had to be in that sort of role, and the facts of it can be somewhat counter-intuitive ("Why can't you just hire more developers and make them all work on the most important thing?") or not even capable of being intuited at all by folks who aren't familiar with the field ("Why do you have people working on scenery when there are so many sim bugs?   They're the same people doing both, right?")

And that can lead to misunderstandings, and hurt feelings, and insults being thrown... but I think I've rambled enough about this for now.    I have code to get back to.   😄    Hopefully this has been helpful, or at least interesting, to someone.

 

 

Lets just bring the full circle now.

It's obviously nice to have new stuff coming out for the sim.  It's great to keep having the world updated.  I think we can all agree that they have this side of the house going great and full steam.

It would be nice to hear about the progress on the core features, bugs, etc., on the technical side of the house.

I also think the priorities (dev roadmap) for the sim maybe needs to be re-aligned somewhat to reflect what really needs fixing first.  Not that it's totally out of whack, just streamlined a bit.

For me personally, I still think they're headed in the right direction.  Can we fast forward to late fall now where WX is fixed and PMDG and FENIX are out...maybe? 🙂

I'd like to fast forward until PMDG releases the 777, 747-8, GSX for MSFS, and AIG-OCI, QualityWings 787.

I want a Dash 8 more than anything tbh

Oh good, do we now each get a say...  😉

An RV7A please!

3 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

Oh good, do we now each get a say...  😉

An RV7A please!

It would much easier if we just said; we want it all....right now...lol.  If we're being honest, that's what we really want.  That's what all this really boils down to.

Of the things publicly known to be in the making, I think I am most eager for:

1. The ATSimulations AN2
2. The Wing42 Boeing 247 and Vega
3. The Aeroplane Heaven DC3
4. A Beaver, either from MilViz or (ahem!) @leprechaunlive (get with it! 😄 )

(Also have my eyes out for the Pilatus that Iris recently announced they'll be making and the MilViz 310.    And hopefully I'll find some more wonderful vintage surprises like the Aeroplane Heaven C140 and the Big Radials Nieuport 17.)

Edited August 31, 20214 yr by kaosfere